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Thread: Seam welding, and / or half cage.

  1. #1

    Seam welding, and / or half cage.

    Musing out loud here. But I'm contemplating making my mk2 GTI more hardcore for trackdays. The stock shells are floppy things, and obviously a full cage is the best way to improve things, but I want to keep it as a usable Road legal car. Save on trailering etc. And I have a rally car anyway for the completely full on mentalness.

    Anyway, any of you got knowledge and experience of the difference seam welding, or even additional spotwelds would make? And the same re a rear cage comprising a B pillar hoop, tied to the rear turrets and "X" braced to them. Obviously the main hoop would be tied to the shell along the B pillars and roof gutter areas, not just to the floor.

  2. #2
    Regular Diamond Hell's Avatar
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    I believe there is a handy graphic Weeman has, which accurately displays the benefits of installing a half-cage.

    IIRC Sparrow had a fancy Golf2, which was seam welded, but also had a full welded-in cage, so he might provide narrative on that.

    Seam welding Golf2 control arms and fitting TT bushes to the large rear aperture makes a significant difference to turn in - I know that much.

    Loved the difference it made to my car welding in a full cage, too.
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
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  3. #3
    Regular Nige's Avatar
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    I do understand what you are saying about not wanting a cage for a road car, but I can`t see that seam welding will give you a noticeable benefit. Especially for all the effort involved.

  4. #4
    I think a Mk 2 would probably be a Euro Ncap 1 these days.

    I'd happily trust a Clio 172 on track they are strong little things, the difference in strength between those and a Mk2 are vast.

    Full bolt in cage, when not on track unbolt the side bars so you can get in and out ok.

    If you are running seats and harnesses a half cage in the wrong accident will not stop you propping the roof up with your head
    Ermmmmm

  5. #5
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    A half cage is a waste of time.

    My cage was originally bolted in, and the shell is seam welded front to rear, days of work.

    When I first got it, the bung in the passenger floor would keep popping out randomly.
    I added the two cross bars for the passenger seat, and that bung never popped out again.
    That shows how much flex a bolt in cage still allows in our tin cans.

    For rigidity, proper weld in cage with multiple attachment points, or don't bother.
    For safety, a bolt in cage will be fine, and help with rigidity, but not as much as you'd think.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow View Post
    A half cage is a waste of time.

    My cage was originally bolted in, and the shell is seam welded front to rear, days of work.

    When I first got it, the bung in the passenger floor would keep popping out randomly.
    I added the two cross bars for the passenger seat, and that bung never popped out again.
    That shows how much flex a bolt in cage still allows in our tin cans.

    For rigidity, proper weld in cage with multiple attachment points, or don't bother.
    For safety, a bolt in cage will be fine, and help with rigidity, but not as much as you'd think.
    I had my harness bar welded across the rear turrets which will help, would have probably benefitted from a front strut Brace too.
    Ermmmmm

  7. #7
    I have mk3 top mounts, powerflex offset centre rear wishbone bushes for stiffening and extra caster, -30mm Eibachs and Marginally uprated Bilsteins. An LSD I bought from Alex, 280mm brakes, braided lines, 16v master cylinder, front strut brace, and a tweaked 2.0 8v, so I've kind of "done" the civilised Road car end.

    What's stopping me fitting a full cage is the fear of having an accident while not wearing a helmet. which isn't actually legal here on the public road
    And I can't NCT (Irish equivalent to, only a little stricter than the MOT) the car with a weld in cage.

  8. #8
    Oh and BTW guys, good dialogue. Appreciate the advice

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    I have mk3 top mounts, powerflex offset centre rear wishbone bushes for stiffening and extra caster, -30mm Eibachs and Marginally uprated Bilsteins. An LSD I bought from Alex, 280mm brakes, braided lines, 16v master cylinder, front strut brace, and a tweaked 2.0 8v, so I've kind of "done" the civilised Road car end.

    What's stopping me fitting a full cage is the fear of having an accident while not wearing a helmet. which isn't actually legal here on the public road
    And I can't NCT (Irish equivalent to, only a little stricter than the MOT) the car with a weld in cage.
    What seats are you running? I had OMP RS seats mounted to the floor, I was soooo far away from the cage if my head had at any point hit it during an accident it wouldn't have been attached to my body.

    If you are running seats and harnesses, having no cage is even more dangerous as harnesses don't allow you to bend like a normal seat belt, so if the roof caves first point of contact is your noggin.

    My rule would be no cage = normal belts, bucket seats fine

    Bucket seats + harnesses = at least a half cage, preferably full.

    I also had a mega Eibach rear antiroll bar, not cheap but a must i'd say.
    Ermmmmm

  10. #10
    Regular Nige's Avatar
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    My bolt in OMP allowed the door bars AND the bar that runs along the top of the door to be unbolted.

    Remove those for the road and refit for the track? Add a small bracket to keep the A hoop welded/ bolted to the A pillar.



    This one https://www.ybracing.com/omp-aa104p1...l-inc-gti.html
    Last edited by Nige; 29-05-2019 at 11:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    My bolt in OMP allowed the door bars AND the bar that runs along the top of the door to be unbolted.

    Remove those for the road and refit for the track? Add a small bracket to keep the A hoop welded/ bolted to the A pillar.



    This one https://www.ybracing.com/omp-aa104p1...l-inc-gti.html
    Same as mine I think.

    To remove the seats and take out that front section wouldn't be more than a 30 minute job, comes out through the door if I remember correctly. Then you could just run the rear section for the road and quickly put the front section back in.
    Ermmmmm

  12. #12
    Regular Diamond Hell's Avatar
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    One thing this thread has highlighted is the lack of sufficient valves in the Golf in question, so that's that clear, anyway.

    Unfortunately removing the front-to-back bars still leaves a big ole bit of scaffolding above the head in a MKII.

    And I completely agree with Weeman's comment about cages/buckets/harnesses - it's like the holy trinity - gotta have 'em all, or none at all.

    It's off-piste, but putting half an inch of weld, leaving an inch etc around those control arms will make a big difference.
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
    Woodland camping with Forest Schools on the Isle of Wight: campwight.co.uk

  13. #13
    Regular Nige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    Unfortunately removing the front-to-back bars still leaves a big ole bit of scaffolding above the head in a MKII.
    Where abouts ?

  14. #14
    This ^
    Ermmmmm

  15. #15
    Regular Diamond Hell's Avatar
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    If it's in standard seats, not buckets, just above and behind the head.
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
    Woodland camping with Forest Schools on the Isle of Wight: campwight.co.uk

  16. #16
    I have mk3 Golf Recaros, either Jap spec or vr6, not sure, but very supportive, just too effing heavy. Standard belts.

    I seam welded the suspension arms when they were getting new bushes.

    Oh and re the valveage, that's going to be fixed
    ... I've an alloy blocked 16v with some nice shiny bits to fit.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    I believe there is a handy graphic Weeman has, which accurately displays the benefits of installing a half-cage.
    Google can't find it anywhere

    Was amusing though.

  18. #18
    Can't find the original, but this was a later version

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeman View Post
    I once drew a picture to a friend with a half cage in paint, it looked like this....


  19. #19
    And the GT3 version

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeman View Post
    Edit, too include the two stage process for the Porsche


  20. #20
    That's it
    Ermmmmm

  21. #21
    Regular Diamond Hell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    ... I've an alloy blocked 16v with some nice shiny bits to fit.
    This sounds interesting.

    Engine code?
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
    Woodland camping with Forest Schools on the Isle of Wight: campwight.co.uk

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    This sounds interesting.

    Engine code?

    O6b out of a 2.0 n/a Audi 20v but with an ABF head. Fancy je pistons, Pauter rods. Jenvey itbs, Schricks, Omex 600.

  23. #23
    Regular Diamond Hell's Avatar
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    Never mind the shell, more deets on this, please!!

    /threadjack
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
    Woodland camping with Forest Schools on the Isle of Wight: campwight.co.uk

  24. #24
    Lol, will do once I put it on the engine stand.

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