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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by findlay View Post
    And Hobbit, isn’t an MP there to represent the interests of the public? So, say that, like me, you have a conservative MP. And say that, for argument’s sake their constituents voted, by a margin of 10%, to remain in the EU. Do they tow the party line or do they work on behalf of the majority of their constituents? Quite the dilemma, no?
    I thought that we had a referendum, and voted to leave. Full stop. It doesn't matter if you voted to stay or leave, we're leaving.

    I voted to remain by the way, but I realise that I cannot turn back time, and therefore am looking forward.......




    Ps- it's toe the line

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by northernjim View Post
    I thought that we had a referendum, and voted to leave. Full stop. It doesn't matter if you voted to stay or leave, we're leaving.

    I voted to remain by the way, but I realise that I cannot turn back time, and therefore am looking forward.......




    Ps- it's toe the line

    But then remember the Brexit campaign told lots of lies and it was'nt fair, like everybody in politics during referendum/election time tells the truth

    350million to the NHS, like who actually in their right mind believed that or voted for Brexit because of that. The words Sore & Losers spring to mind!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigt3 View Post
    But then remember the Brexit campaign told lots of lies and it was'nt fair, like everybody in politics during referendum/election time tells the truth

    350million to the NHS, like who actually in their right mind believed that or voted for Brexit because of that. The words Sore & Losers spring to mind!
    Both campaigns did. Or were economical with the truth.
    No one comes out of this with any dignity in my opinion.
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  4. #54
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    I'm gonna put Neil forward for picking fresh produce in Lincolnshire. He's the least likely of us to get back ache (he'll never bite this time)
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    because we don't listen to 'experts' any more.
    'where we're going, we don't need experts!' 😂
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  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave B View Post
    Both campaigns did. Or were economical with the truth.
    No one comes out of this with any dignity in my opinion.
    100% agree, but that does'nt mean as some people think the referendum should be run again because "lies where told" they all told lies!!!

  7. #57
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    Perversely, you'd only find out if people's opinions were swayed by either side's lies if there was a second ref... now they're aware of both side's true picture.

    True remain/leave voters would stick to their beliefs. The floating voters - well, it'd be interesting to see.
    Takes a lot of skill to look this bad you know...

  8. #58
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    What were the remain lies?
    It's literally a Diamond shaped Hell at times
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  9. #59
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    Me? I don't believe there were any significant remain lies.

    I wrote the above with a view to being hypothetical.
    Takes a lot of skill to look this bad you know...

  10. #60
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    Not you - those above you insisting there were 'lies on both sides'.

    What were they on the remain side?
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  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    Not you - those above you insisting there were 'lies on both sides'.

    What were they on the remain side?
    An immediate Brexit recession

  12. #62
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    We haven't left yet
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  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    We haven't left yet
    Ah-ha, no lies on both sides then, I knew Boris Johnson was telling the truth

  14. #64
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    I had every faith that the upper class twits behind this Conservative vanity project, always had the best interests of the working man at heart. It'll be fine. No idea why we don't just see what happens. Leave them to it. They know what they're doing.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    I'm gonna put Neil forward for picking fresh produce in Lincolnshire. He's the least likely of us to get back ache (he'll never bite this time)
    My arms are equally as short as my legs. I’ll accept I’m a midget but I’m not deformed!

    I don’t see it as baiting - I’ve just said it’s a waste of time writing to an MP because the opinions put forward are utter nonsense

    Radio4 yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, “start the week” I think it’s called, had someone on who summed it up perfectly

    1. People have a gut feeling that their position is based upon, either pro or anti eu

    2. People take utter drivel put forward as “facts” by the media, and spout that to support that opinion

    That’s where we are at and it’s so, so tiring listening to people bleat on and on about what they think, which is nothing more than what some idiot has written in the Daily Mail and is only concerned with generating the most impact from a headline that they can


    The ironic thing is that “experts” don’t actually have an opinion on most of this. Of those I’ve come across - generally legal and financial, and a couple in security services - most are simply swamped by everything they’re having to read through and get to grips with. Whether it’s in or out and what the pros/cons are is something they don’t comment on because the more they learn, the more complicated the answer becomes

  16. #66
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    I don't think I'm on my own when wondering if we just decided it was a crap idea, and concentrated on something a bit more worthwhile, then the country would be in a better place. And if we decided we'd like to let our MP know this, then that's our prerogative. Yes it's a hunch, and we aren't armed with all the figures and facts of what will happen to our industries and jobs. But neither are the people doing our negotiations. And some of us think that is more than likely quite bad.
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  17. #67
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    You won't find me contributing much on this as I have the opinion that there is naff all I can bring to the debate. I was a remain voter, much as I believe any sane person would have done the same. The country voted leave. It's their game now, I'll have to make a go of whatever we end up with.
    I did laugh out loud today though at a comment made by my stepdad. He is of a slightly older generation, daily mail reader type. He voted leave, with some sort of dream in his head. He is head-in-hands now at the whole sorry mess. He said today, and I quote, "I had a dream. Sadly I trusted the government to deliver that dream. What a bloody mistake"

    Wake me up when it's all over.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    and we aren't armed with all the figures and facts of what will happen to our industries and jobs
    I'm sorry, you can only forecast the future but not determine it.

    The world's a changing and whether or not this will be for the better I cannot of course determine.

  19. #69
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    Long term, we can't accurately predict.

    The first 10 years are going to be difficult if we don't negotiate remaining in a customs union and maintaining free trade. Making new trade agreements takes 5-10 years on average, and there is no guarantee that anything we negotiate with more remote countries in the World will come anywhere near compensating for the reduction in trade with the massive market right on our doorstep.

    30, 40 years from now, who knows? However, it's the short term effects that concern me most.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    The world's a changing and whether or not this will be for the better I cannot of course determine.
    The world is indeed changing. Trade blocs are on the increase, and countries are seeking closer cooperation with each other. Companies are forming alliances in order to remain competitive and profitable in challenging economic conditions.

    Meanwhile, the UK is doing the opposite...
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    Long term, we can't accurately predict.

    The first 10 years are going to be difficult if we don't negotiate remaining in a customs union and maintaining free trade. Making new trade agreements takes 5-10 years on average, and there is no guarantee that anything we negotiate with more remote countries in the World will come anywhere near compensating for the reduction in trade with the massive market right on our doorstep.

    30, 40 years from now, who knows? However, it's the short term effects that concern me most.
    & short term could well be 30-40 years! Guess our kids kids will find out then how much of a **** up we started.
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    Question

    I'm like Northern Jim. I voted remain but the majority voted leave so I simply have to get on with life and see what unfolds.

    I think it would be disastrous to back pedal now, we'd be f##### over by those parasites in Brussels for voting leave. Then having a bit of a wobble, re-voting stay and no doubt in 10 years when we are still in the financial doldrums, moaning a bit more for being doubly lied to.

    I think it's harsh to talk about US screwing up our kids futures. We were given a vote by the ruling elite and it backfired on them. If we had had strong Politicians (Cameron for starters) they would have negotiated a better deal with the EU and no doubt done properly, it would have led to the other big hitters in the EU helping to re-organe the whole thing, which is in reality what was required.
    The media have also got a huge amount of involvement in this whole thing, on either side. Hyping up a variety of stuff from Romanians coming over here eating babies to front page spreads of a small child dead on a beach.

    As for remainer lies. I wasn't being specific but do find it hilarious that the very vociferous 'remainers' seem to believe that everything spouted by 'thier side' was true.

    European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'. It hasn't, has it ?

    George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented. He also stated that an emergency budget would be required.

    David Cameron stated that he would stay as PM post a Brexit vote.


    How this thread has turned out is why we don't generally do politics on Northloop.
    Last edited by Dave B; 20-12-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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  23. #73
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    Neil - Again you're saying what will happen in the future not what might happen.

    If you can't grasp this (& anyone else) can you just step aside & let those with such understanding crack on to sort out, what will be probably the biggest challenge politically we'll ever see.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave B View Post
    I'm like Northern Jim. I voted remain but the majority voted leave so I simply have to get on with life and see what unfolds.

    I think it would be disastrous to back pedal now, we'd be f##### over by those parasites in Brussels for voting leave. Then having a bit of a wobble, re-voting stay and no doubt in 10 years when we are still in the financial doldrums, moaning a bit more for being doubly lied to.

    I think it's harsh to talk about US screwing up our kids futures. We were given a vote by the ruling elite and it backfired on them. If we had had strong Politicians (Cameron for starters) they would have negotiated a better deal with the EU and no doubt done properly, it would have led to the other big hitters in the EU helping to re-organe the whole thing, which is in reality what was required.
    The media have also got a huge amount of involvement in this whole thing, on either side. Hyping up a variety of stuff from Romanians coming over here eating babies to front page spreads of a small child dead on a beach.

    As for remainer lies. I wasn't being specific but do find it hilarious that the very vociferous 'remainers' seem to believe that everything spouted by 'thier side' was true.

    European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'. It hasn't, has it ?

    George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented. He also stated that an emergency budget would be required.

    David Cameron stated that he would stay as PM post a Brexit vote.


    How this thread has turned out is why we don't generally do politics on Northloop.
    Agree!

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    Neil - Again you're saying what will happen in the future not what might happen.
    Not at all, Fitz. I made a logical statement.

    To recap:

    IF we don't negotiate a Free Trade agreement with the EU, the economy WILL suffer.

    IF we do, the negative effects will be reduced somewhat.

    We have to maintain pressure on our Government to act in the best interests of this country, which is something they've been failing to do during the negotiations so far. If we sit back and conclude that whatever we end up with is just fine and won't have an effect on our voting choices in the future, the Government will be under less pressure to, you know, do their job.
    Last edited by Neil Mac; 20-12-2017 at 12:40 PM.
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  26. #76
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    I think we have bigger things to worry about. Environment/Russia/China. Then Trump.
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  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    Not at all, Fitz. I made a logical statement.

    IF we don't negotiate a Free Trade agreement with the EU, the economy WILL suffer.

    IF we do, the negative effects will be reduced somewhat.

    We have to maintain pressure on our Government to act in the best interests of this country, which is something they've been failing to do during the negotiations so far. If we sit back and conclude that whatever we end up with is just fine and won't have an effect on our voting choices in the future, the Government will be under less pressure to, you know, do their job.
    There that's better-what may happen instead of stating impending doom as fact.

    There again - it might not and it'll all be rosy.

    But sadly I doubt it for a while but hearing the news on the banks today and the title of this thread now being resolved enough to move onto the next stage is reassuring.
    Last edited by Fitz711; 20-12-2017 at 04:20 PM.

  28. #78
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    Oh yeah, the border issue with IE is totally resolved.
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  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    Oh yeah, the border issue with IE is totally resolved.
    I've added an 'enough' for your benefit.
    To be fair Thomas I really thought you would have got over all of this by now and understood we need to move on.

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    Not at all, Fitz. I made a logical statement.

    To recap:

    IF we don't negotiate a Free Trade agreement with the EU, the economy WILL suffer.
    Oh interesting - please enlighten me with exact specifics as to why this is the case

    Please also detail out what you mean by “the economy”. What measure(s) are you using, what exactly do you mean by such a vastly broad term?


    With such an authoritative statement I presume you have an abundance of literature at your disposal so this will be quite an education ...

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    I've added an 'enough' for your benefit.
    To be fair Thomas I really thought you would have got over all of this by now and understood we need to move on.
    We do: we need to move on from the ridiculous and dodgily thrown vote and get back on with life inside the trading bloc that constitutes our largest and closest single export market .

    For me, that would be moving on.

    Say in an alternative outcome the vote had been 52% in favour of remaining in the EU: how likely do you think it is that Farage, Gove et al would have got over all of their enthusiasm for leaving the EU and moved on?

    Opposition to what the government is doing is natural and healthy - no one says to people in the Conservative party 'isn't it about time you got over being soul-less capitalist b*stards and moved on to behaving like more reasonable human beings', do they?

    So why would I get over my enthusiasm for the clear, logical, proven route forward for the British economy, rather than suddenly developing an enthusiasm for a completely illogical, unproven route down which we were being encouraged by those looking to rip up environmental and employee protection for the convenience of big business?

    Unless, you know, you were being ironic in what you said and the irony just didn't carry in the pixels?
    That sort of behaviour would be batsh*t mental in my books.
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  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    We do: we need to move on from the ridiculous and dodgily thrown vote and get back on with life inside the trading bloc that constitutes our largest and closest single export market .

    For me, that would be moving on.

    Say in an alternative outcome the vote had been 52% in favour of remaining in the EU: how likely do you think it is that Farage, Gove et al would have got over all of their enthusiasm for leaving the EU and moved on?

    Opposition to what the government is doing is natural and healthy - no one says to people in the Conservative party 'isn't it about time you got over being soul-less capitalist b*stards and moved on to behaving like more reasonable human beings', do they?

    So why would I get over my enthusiasm for the clear, logical, proven route forward for the British economy, rather than suddenly developing an enthusiasm for a completely illogical, unproven route down which we were being encouraged by those looking to rip up environmental and employee protection for the convenience of big business?

    Unless, you know, you were being ironic in what you said and the irony just didn't carry in the pixels?
    That sort of behaviour would be batsh*t mental in my books.
    Quite an amusing post, especially the bit where you mention "the clear, logical, proven route forward for the British economy", I'm sure the people of Greece thought that once too.

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    Look is that Santa over there ? (Everyone is now distracted as they all turn to look for Santa )
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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit View Post
    Oh interesting - please enlighten me with exact specifics as to why this is the case

    Please also detail out what you mean by “the economy”. What measure(s) are you using, what exactly do you mean by such a vastly broad term?

    With such an authoritative statement I presume you have an abundance of literature at your disposal so this will be quite an education ...
    Hi Neil,

    I realise you're just trying to play Devil's Avocado, and you haven't contributed anything of substance to this discussion, but I'm going to respond anyway.

    My definition of "the economy" is the same as the Dictionary one:

    Economy

    /ɪˈkɒnəmi/

    noun

    The state of a country or region in terms of the production and consumption of goods and services and the supply of money.
    "He favours tax cuts to stimulate the economy"

    synonyms: wealth, (financial) resources
    Not sure why you're asking about the rest of my statement. It's not exactly rocket science. Currently we pay 0% on goods and services imported to and exported from the EU, and the customs union means that they aren't delayed at ports of entry.

    IF we fail to negotiate Free Trade and remaining in the Customs Union, we will revert to WTO rules and be forced to both pay and charge a tariff, with an average of >0%. We'll also have customs-inflicted delays and additional costs to move things in and out. This will affect productivity, profitability, and ultimately how much money goes to the Treasury (i.e. the "economy").

    Please read an impartial report to learn more:

    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-leavi...SAAEgJPwfD_BwE
    Last edited by Neil Mac; 21-12-2017 at 07:56 AM.
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  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    Look is that Santa over there ? (Everyone is now distracted as they all turn to look for Santa )
    Now DH how are you getting on with your projects ?
    Ooooh, look at that massive distraction technique over there everyone else - it's huge!

    Big push during twixtmas this year, painting and wiring and possibly gluing panels in. Been a bit distracted with other (larger) projects through the past six months (I'll hopefully tell that story on here in the coming months) and the devil is in the details. It's easy to make a frame, harder to fill in the bit inside the box especially with very little funding (venture capitalists are scum).

    Hopefully coming to a finish soon.
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigt3 View Post
    Quite an amusing post, especially the bit where you mention "the clear, logical, proven route forward for the British economy", I'm sure the people of Greece thought that once too.
    We haven't borrowed vast sums of money from the Germans to maintain a massive military, so your analogy simply doesn't work.
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  37. #87
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    Fascinating discussion, shame the debate is being closed down by the usual bickering. No wonder some folk don't feel comfortable with engaging/expressing their views either way.

    Everyone agrees(agreed?) a common market is good (EEC)

    But an EU has always been a bone of contention in this country from the get go - we've always had only one foot in in one way or another since Maastricht in '91.

    Opts outs - yes please.
    ERM? Nah.
    Euro - no thanks.
    Schengen - nope.

    Regardless of the how it goes in the UK (we'll be fine by the way) it'll be interesting to see how the EU changes form, if at all, in the wake of Brexit.

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Hell View Post
    We haven't borrowed vast sums of money from the Germans to maintain a massive military, so your analogy simply doesn't work.
    Vast sums of money for the military ! Whatever the "vast sums of money" where for, what is happening in Greece is a travesty and obviously the EU most take some responsibility for that, they done the equivalent of lending a homeless drunk person £100,000 and wondereing why they can't pay it back!!

  39. #89
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    I have to say, from a distance, to me Greece sums up all that's wrong with the EU project.

    Which to me, is why it can never work the way the idealists want it too.

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    Hi Neil,

    I realise you're just trying to play Devil's Avocado, and you haven't contributed anything of substance to this discussion, but I'm going to respond anyway.

    My definition of "the economy" is the same as the Dictionary one:



    Not sure why you're asking about the rest of my statement. It's not exactly rocket science. Currently we pay 0% on goods and services imported to and exported from the EU, and the customs union means that they aren't delayed at ports of entry.

    IF we fail to negotiate Free Trade and remaining in the Customs Union, we will revert to WTO rules and be forced to both pay and charge a tariff, with an average of >0%. We'll also have customs-inflicted delays and additional costs to move things in and out. This will affect productivity, profitability, and ultimately how much money goes to the Treasury (i.e. the "economy").

    Please read an impartial report to learn more:

    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-leavi...SAAEgJPwfD_BwE

    1. I find it ironic that me saying, “you’re not qualified to have an opinion until you fully understand the issue” is not contributing. I’d argue that’s the biggest contribution one can make to any debate - ie get informed and STFU until you have

    2. You don’t seem to understand the economy... and it’s not the measure most of the leading literature is saying we should be focusing on.

    Firstly, the definition you provide is far too basic - it focuses only on trade and ignores investment and intangibles we generate - which are responsible for the majority of wealth creation. Note that not all intangibles are classified as services for the purposes of measurement. The treasury is also not the economy.

    Second, you are taking a totally bland term which is far removed from the status of the average man on the street. A country’s economic measure does not necessarily reflect living standards for the majority

    Thirdly, you should read into the increasingly popular literature pushing to drop economic measures as the main focus and instead look to measure things like health and well-being, happiness and so on, which seem more directly linked with the status of a country’s population

    3. You’re totally, totally jumping to conclusions without any basis for evidence

    For starters, productivity is categorically not affected by tariffs, they have no bearing on that whatsoever.

    Why are you even talking about productivity? There is a massive argument to say this is a completely flawed measure given the make up of our economy

    Profitability is also, categorically, not affected by tariffs. You’re using terms you don’t seem to appreciate the calculation of and also totally ignore all their relationships with other things

    Tariffs are there to prevent any one country having an unfair advantage over another. The cost of goods in country X is not comparable to country Y purely through tariffs - what about the relative interest rates, inflation, currency rates... the market corrects for all of these things to prevent arbitrage. And that’s without considering wages, taxation and other such factors


    In short, us not being part of the EU is simply an “unknown” and the success of our various trade and service industries, ability to secure investment, ability to generate intangibles and ability to break down perceived barriers to all of these things will depend on how capable we are

    Put simply - things will change. Whether they will be good or bad is impossible to establish and your arguments put forward are simply non-existent.

    To have read that article, which is littered with statements confirming the fact that nothing is ‘known’, then thinking that’s some kind of evidence for negative consequences of leaving the EU, is really poor form

  41. #91
    [QUOTE=hobbit;1022332]1. I find it ironic that me saying, “you’re not qualified to have an opinion until you fully understand the issue” is not contributing. I’d argue that’s the biggest contribution one can make to any debate - ie get informed and STFU until you have

    2. You don’t seem to understand the economy... and it’s not the measure most of the leading literature is saying we should be focusing on.

    Firstly, the definition you provide is far too basic - it focuses only on trade and ignores investment and intangibles we generate - which are responsible for the majority of wealth creation. Note that not all intangibles are classified as services for the purposes of measurement. The treasury is also not the economy.

    Second, you are taking a totally bland term which is far removed from the status of the average man on the street. A country’s economic measure does not necessarily reflect living standards for the majority

    Thirdly, you should read into the increasingly popular literature pushing to drop economic measures as the main focus and instead look to measure things like health and well-being, happiness and so on, which seem more directly linked with the status of a country’s population

    3. You’re totally, totally jumping to conclusions without any basis for evidence

    For starters, productivity is categorically not affected by tariffs, they have no bearing on that whatsoever.

    Why are you even talking about productivity? There is a massive argument to say this is a completely flawed measure given the make up of our economy

    Profitability is also, categorically, not affected by tariffs. You’re using terms you don’t seem to appreciate the calculation of and also totally ignore all their relationships with other things

    Tariffs are there to prevent any one country having an unfair advantage over another. The cost of goods in country X is not comparable to country Y purely through tariffs - what about the relative interest rates, inflation, currency rates... the market corrects for all of these things to prevent arbitrage. And that’s without considering wages, taxation and other such factors


    In short, us not being part of the EU is simply an “unknown” and the success of our various trade and service industries, ability to secure investment, ability to generate intangibles and ability to break down perceived barriers to all of these things will depend on how capable we are

    Put simply - things will change. Whether they will be good or bad is impossible to establish and your arguments put forward are simply non-existent.

    To have read that article, which is littered with statements confirming the fact that nothing is ‘known’, then thinking that’s some kind of evidence for negative consequences of leaving the EU, is really poor form[/QUOTE

    What you write above is true, nobody knows what's going to happen but a lot of "remainers" seem to think the world will stop spinning, we'll all go bankrupt, the stock market will crash, the .................!!! This scaremongering is part of the reason why people voted for brexit, but as we can see it's still continuing. I think we should have another referendum just to make sure the 1st one was correct and if that doesn't get a satisfactory outcome we should have another 4 votes after that, we could call it the "Switzerland system" because they've had 6 votes to join the EU and refused 6 times (I wonder will they have anymore) and maybe if we do that we'll get the same deal Switzerland has, because they seem to be doing alright outside the bloc, oh wait, forgot that's not possible.

  42. #92
    Regular Joel's Avatar
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    Don't worry, the Gov't have got the important issues covered. Passports will be blue again after Brexit.
    If the whole world was filled with just animals and David Attenborough, it would be a beautiful place. Unfortunately, it's been overrun by 7.7-billion assholes.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Don't worry, the Gov't have got the important issues covered. Passports will be blue again after Brexit.
    Hooray. Normality returns
    If a man speaks his mind in a forest and no woman hears him...is he still wrong ?

  44. #94
    Regular Neil Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit View Post
    words
    That's a lot of writing. Well done for taking part.

    You seem to have misunderstood my points, and extrapolated from you misunderstanding.

    If Costs go up, profitability goes down.
    Tariffs applied to WTO rules will increase costs.
    Is that clear enough?

    The tariffs don't affect productivity. It's the delays at customs which will do that, particularly for businesses trying to run JIT production systems.

    P.S. Opinions don't require qualifications. That's why everyone has one. Apart from you.
    "Fortunately, I'd taken a spare Gearbox, Turbo, Actuator, Banjo Connector, Steering Rack, Driveshafts, ECU, Wideband sensor, 57-51mm silicone reducing elbow and a Copper Banjo Washer." - Nige

  45. #95
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    Ffs we all enjoy a good debate but personal comments are a sign of losing.
    The oratorical skill is to do so at such a level that garners respect & puts others in a position they can't recover from.


    Just keep it to the level above personal comments
    Last edited by Fitz711; 22-12-2017 at 10:20 AM.

  46. #96
    Regular Neil Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    Ffs we all enjoy a good debate but personal comments are a sign of losing.
    The oratorical skill is to do so at such a level that garners respect & puts others in a position they can't recover from.


    Just keep it to the level above personal comments
    Sorry Fitz, my comments are all in jest. Neil and I just enjoy winding each other up on the internet. I wouldn't aim comments like that at anyone else. We're not even on opposing sides of this particular argument.
    "Fortunately, I'd taken a spare Gearbox, Turbo, Actuator, Banjo Connector, Steering Rack, Driveshafts, ECU, Wideband sensor, 57-51mm silicone reducing elbow and a Copper Banjo Washer." - Nige

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Langeveld View Post
    I have to say, from a distance, to me Greece sums up all that's wrong with the EU project.

    Which to me, is why it can never work the way the idealists want it too.
    Actually it would probably work very well the way the idealists want it to. It doesn't work as well when political/cultural realities are considered.

    Greece is also primarily a Eurozone problem rather than an EU one. The Euro is too cheap for Germany but too expensive for Greece, and letting each run their own fiscal policy, taxation etc just doesn't work.

    Greece was worse off pre-EU and Eurozone, hence very few of them would want to leave. The main difference is that their Drachma could devalue and become the butt of jokes whereas the EUR cannot.

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    Actually it would probably work very well the way the idealists want it to. It doesn't work as well when political/cultural realities are considered.

    Greece is also primarily a Eurozone problem rather than an EU one. The Euro is too cheap for Germany but too expensive for Greece, and letting each run their own fiscal policy, taxation etc just doesn't work.

    Greece was worse off pre-EU and Eurozone, hence very few of them would want to leave. The main difference is that their Drachma could devalue and become the butt of jokes whereas the EUR cannot.


    Greece was definitely not worse of pre-EU than it is now, and also the people of Greece held a referendum with regards to paying back their debt which they voted against (in other words leave) but funnily enough the Greek government went against their own people's vote and are trying to meet the EU demands. If you live in Greece at the minute and own your own house you have to pay a "luxury tax" for the privilege, also if you have a child you have to pay a "luxury Tax". My friends wife is greek and although she does'nt blame the EU for the initial situation Greek got itself into, she cannot understand the disgraceful way the EU is treating them now. One plus point for Greece is if they decide not to pay back their debts to the EU at least they can never be invaded by an EU Army because the eu assured everyone that their never gonna have one

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    If Costs go up, profitability goes down.
    Tariffs applied to WTO rules will increase costs.
    Is that clear....
    Except that’s not how it works at all

    So you’re in the 99% of the population that are ignorant yet try and have an opinion

    Learn some basic economics, then you’ll realise how everything is related

    Your most worrying approach is the classic, “I’ll assume everything else is the same, change one thing, then base an argument around that”

    Fail :)

    It’s also sad you need to get personal. And kinda ironic, as I’m probably more qualified and experienced on this specific issue than you are... unless you have real experience with cross border trade agreements, contracts, risk assessments etc, but nothing you’ve said so far suggests an inkling of awareness

    Edit - just need to point out that the last paragraph is latching on to what someone else has said, and that’s why I’ve said it... that’s what makes it super funny, because the rest of what I’m saying is criticising that exact approach...

    Just before anyone thinks this is becoming a bit of a slanging match ;)
    Last edited by hobbit; 26-12-2017 at 12:38 PM.

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Mac View Post
    Sorry Fitz, my comments are all in jest. Neil and I just enjoy winding each other up on the internet. I wouldn't aim comments like that at anyone else. We're not even on opposing sides of this particular argument.
    You can’t even get that right

    On a serious note, given you know I think nothing matters anyway, it’s disappointing you haven’t thrown that back at me

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