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Thread: Gearbox /Diff oil cooler, pump and filter setup

  1. #1
    Regular Nige's Avatar
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    Gearbox /Diff oil cooler, pump and filter setup

    I`ve thought the gearbox on the Golf ran hot for a while but when I was topping up the header tank with water at DN18, some dripped onto the gearbox and instantly turned to steam! Yeah, that`s not ideal..

    This is a result of the plate diff, it wasn`t anywhere near as hot before but the plate diff has certainly made a difference.


    I am going to be fitting a gearbox oil cooler to it. I can use the gearbox drain and fill plugs, tap the centre and fit the hose adapters into the plugs. The drain will need to be an elbow, but as I run a splitter there is no risk of it snagging on a kerb or debris. Or, I can return to the 5th Gear end casing as this is an area that can suffer from low oil. I now overfill the gearbox to allow for that after 5th was starved of oil and failed at Donington a few years ago.


    Basically, this arrangement


    An added bonus will be to filter the oil. One of the concerns when fitting a plate diff was the particles in the oil. I change the gearbox oil annually and it always has that slight metallic `sheen` to it since I fitted the plate diff, which wasn`t there before. Filtering that out can only be a good thing.

    So, what I`m asking is does anyone have suggestions for a suitable pump, or should I just fit a Mocal EOP2

    What filter would you suggest ? I don`t want to go so fine it blinds up instantly. Are they cleanable or do they have a replacement element ?

    It`s not unusual to do this, but I`m trying to sort it without going and buying a full kit like this.

    Rather than bother with a thermostat, I`ll just wait until after the first session before turning the pump on.

    There must be a more economical way that still has the same result !
    Last edited by Nige; 19-09-2017 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular simonsaunders's Avatar
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    I have very little to add, you'll be surprised to hear, but is there anyway to do something more accurate than 'turn it on after one session'? You must be able to take temp from somewhere?

    I'm not even sure what the optimal temperature range is, but given your love of accuracy and data, surely this would be interesting to monitor too.

    May I also suggest (steady on Saunders) thinking about passive cooling too / instead of? A lot of the M cars have a massive heat sink on the diff. I know air flow and ride height are challenges here, but that passive approach is fit and forget. You've probably thought about this already, but I recently read a little bit on historic race bikes where there is an interesting choice to make RE. external oil coolers on air-cooled bikes. The need for cooling vs. something else to fail or break in a crash.

  3. #3
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    Gurds and I have discussed this and I`ll probably fit a thermostatic switch to the circuit so the pump starts when the gearbox oil is hot enough.

    I don`t have the airflow necessary for passive cooling. It was fine with the Quaife, but with the high speeds I`m reaching everything is spinning much quicker than it was designed to AND the plate diff is having a significant effect.

  4. #4
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    Sorry can not tell you which make to fit but am interested as am looking to fit one on my rear diff

    Was thinking about using a power steering pump but as I hadn't seen this done I came to the conclusion they mustn't be the right for the job

    inline oil filers
    https://www.knfilters.co.uk/inline-filters.aspx
    Last edited by crossie; 19-09-2017 at 12:59 PM.

  5. #5
    Nige, UK nissan 200sx had rear diff cooler setups fitted as standard. You could rob a whole setup from one of these if you can find one
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  6. #6
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  7. #7
    You will also need a check valve
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    Get the BMW sorted and this solves it's self
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by karan View Post
    You will also need a check valve
    Only if you have a filter (to stop the filter back-flowing at any time due to convection when the pump is switched off).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    Get the BMW sorted and this solves it's self

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultegra View Post
    Only if you have a filter (to stop the filter back-flowing at any time due to convection when the pump is switched off).
    why ? What difference does it make ?

    Genuine question.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    If this was someone else other than you, would you suggest the same?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    If this was someone else other than you, would you suggest the same?
    Why would you think I`d say that ? I`m not part of the `You can only have fun in RWD` brigade

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    Why would you think I`d say that ? I`m not part of the `You can only have fun in RWD` brigade
    Has the M3 idea gone out of the window then?

    I'm not suggesting you can only have fun in FWD. I'm a great believer of both as you know
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    why ? What difference does it make ?

    Genuine question.
    The only purpose of a check valve is to ensure the trapped particles in the filter stays trapped. If you don't have a filter, then your cooling circuit only needs to include diff, pump and cooler. With thermo switch too I guess if you're making it autonomous.

    Obviously you'd be circulating the particles with the oil but I doubt the oil would see high miles - you'd be changing it annually, no ?

  16. #16
    I'd be inclined to just have the lines and a cooler. Convection(and the thrashing gears) will make the oil move.
    Mount the cooler at the back in the diffuser. Youll have around a litre more oil and itll be simples.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ultegra View Post
    The only purpose of a check valve is to ensure the trapped particles in the filter stays trapped. If you don't have a filter, then your cooling circuit only needs to include diff, pump and cooler. With thermo switch too I guess if you're making it autonomous.

    Obviously you'd be circulating the particles with the oil but I doubt the oil would see high miles - you'd be changing it annually, no ?
    There is another purpose...
    It also helps to set the correct level in the diff/box, as you would prime the pump and then fill to
    Level.
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  18. #18
    Depends if you have gravity scavenge or lift scavenge.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ultegra View Post
    Depends if you have gravity scavenge or lift scavenge.
    Pump would very unlikely be lower than the drain plug on the box/diff so would most likely be lift
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  20. #20
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    It might be possible to run without a pump but without some testing, can we be sure that there would be enough mechanical pumping from the gears alone?

    The drain would be at the base of the diff housing and is directly under the ring gear. This might be enough to pump the oil out and through the cooler.

    Gurds

  21. #21
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    Perhaps you could weld paddles to the sides of the gear to make more pump?

    I'm not helping, am I?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Perhaps you could weld paddles to the sides of the gear to make more pump?

    I'm not helping, am I?
    What next? Water cooled brakes
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  23. #23
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    Are the bearings running hot (worn) or beyond their ratings ?
    Can't be doing any of the gaskets or seals any good running hot enough to turn water to steam.

  24. #24
    This is interesting regasrding temps now you have a plate diff!!

    Its possible I have a spare 02A gearbox housing and a new welder that does aluminium!!!

    Just saying like Nige ;-)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz711 View Post
    Are the bearings running hot (worn) or beyond their ratings ?
    Can't be doing any of the gaskets or seals any good running hot enough to turn water to steam.
    The bearings aren`t particularly worn but the oil is certainly running beyond it`s effective temperature range.

    Bear in mind, the top of the gearbox casing where the water touched isn`t even in contact with the oil, it`s the lower half that is the sump and that is even hotter.

    Completely agree, this isn`t doing it any good at all and it is why I`m fitting a cooler. The 200SX route is looking promising, Matt has spoken to a few breakers who list them and is waiting for details.

    I will be fitting a filter and a check valve in the circuit. I`ve found a strong magnet on the gearbox casing collects very fine particles so I`ll be securing one to the outside of the inline filter too.

  26. #26
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    The only tricky bit is a pump able to withstand cold oil f it gets started too early. Oem pump sounds like the best way forward, well done Karan. 200sx idea stored for future reference.

    Routing the return to the 5th gear centre so the oil is thrown out and cools the whole section seems like a good plan too.

    The cooler in the bought solution seems very big for the small capacity of the gearbox. Doubling the capacity will be a big help. Raising the oil viscosity and then a temp switch so it can't activate and try to pump 'solid' oil.

    Convection pump. Hmmm. Nige, can you do this first please. With data. Just cos I'm sure its too simple and will result in minimal pumping effect. If it works though...
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  27. #27
    I'm sure Matty may have mentioned it to you but I'm in the middle of doing this to the Kaaz unit on the E36. It began with a small amount of breathing from the diff back cover hole originally, then as it was used harder it got worse. The diff housing/cover were extremely hot, and rather than ruin a differential a cooler is going on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy C View Post
    The only tricky bit is a pump able to withstand cold oil f it gets started too early. Oem pump sounds like the best way forward, well done Karan. 200sx idea stored for future reference.

    Routing the return to the 5th gear centre so the oil is thrown out and cools the whole section seems like a good plan too.

    The cooler in the bought solution seems very big for the small capacity of the gearbox. Doubling the capacity will be a big help. Raising the oil viscosity and then a temp switch so it can't activate and try to pump 'solid' oil.

    Convection pump. Hmmm. Nige, can you do this first please. With data. Just cos I'm sure its too simple and will result in minimal pumping effect. If it works though...
    I like the idea of the convection method. Worth trying this anyway and if it didn't work, it would be easy enough to add a pump and filter?

  29. #29
    Regular Geoff's Avatar
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    I have the Nissan 200SX set up on the Sunbeam, I have a Stack Pro oil gauge with a sensor in the diff cover, you can then set the Stack gauge to switch the oil cooler pump on at whatever temp you want through a relay.
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  30. #30
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    Thanks Geoff, good info.

    Re the convection method. I use that for the stove in the lounge and the water thermosyphons to heat the cylinder above. We also use it extensively at work to circulate oil from a reservoir through mechanical seals on pumps, agitators etc.

    That method relies on a single point of heat generation, so a stove, seal with 2 parts or similar have the fluid feed and return piped directly to them. This heats the oil locally and the heat is convected around the loop, drawing cooler fluid into the hot area and the already heated material being displaced and running back into the reservoir.


    I don`t see how it could work on a car, not only would the movement and G forces disrupt the flow, there isn`t a single point that generates the heat, the whole gearbox warms up and it wouldn`t flow around the circuit without assistance. Good idea but not something I could see working.


    Jordan, interesting that you are finding the same thing that a good plate diff causes higher temps in the diff / gearbox.

  31. #31
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    Worth getting oil temp data from the gearbox before fitting a cooler?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Worth getting oil temp data from the gearbox before fitting a cooler?
    Yes, but I'm not really sure what it will add and I don't know what it would add but I'll probably give it a go.

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    The oil could still be in working range?

    Currently you know it's getting hot, but not really how hot.

    I think it's a valid test.
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    Rodders knows an oil tech man. Could ask him.
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  35. #35
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    I suspect you're right that you'll need a pump, splash lubrication is.... pretty random, and unless you start running clear cases on a spin rig you've got no idea what's happening internally. Could try and fab internal oil galleries, guides and stuff like that, but you're getting a bit mad then and might aswell just get a pre-owned sequential box or something.

    Usually (on more modern stuff at least) you're fine up to 120 or maybe 130C and allowed occasional excursions up to 150 of max 20-30mins. Not sure about 30 year old designs but they won't be any better, probably worse as bearings and seals were less advanced and who knows if all parts you can buy now are newer tech.

    In your application you're battering the gearbox the whole time with the traction and turbo torque you're running (I assume this is still a bog standard unit just with the plate diff?). Does it have an internal magnet? I'd definitely put a filter in the cooler circuit, given the diff debris and extra torque.

    Is 5th an overhanging gear on these? What usually fails, the gears or the bearing? If you could tap a feed in there I'd say you're probably better off splitting the return so that some goes to fifth gear and the rest/most through the main fill point.

    In fact, what gearbox is it and can you just fit a more modern one seeing as they're all turbo engines these days? Suspect that will be far too easy and convenient to be possible though (I have no VW knowledge at all)

  36. #36
    Alluminium is a great heat disperser. Oil may be in limits, heat rises and the top of the case will be where the heat is shed.
    Id measure the oil temp first. Perhaps point a duct at it.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    Yes, but I'm not really sure what it will add and I don't know what it would add but I'll probably give it a go.
    If you're not exceeding limits of the oil, then it alleviates the 'need' for a system which carries a fair risk of going wrong.

    The data currently is that water boils on the casing, a casing which has conduction (engine block), convection (transmission oil) and radiated heat (turbo/exhaust system etc).

    Without gearbox oil temperature, it's only an assumption a hot casing means hot oil (it's not a stupid assumption I might add, but it's still an assumption)

    If you do go ahead, you'll need a check valve in the circuit to ensure the pump is always primed with a head of oil (the mocal ones don't like running dry) the secondary purpose is also to maintain an oil level within the box (i.e. you've not drained back the cooler, pipe volume and pump capacity into the box, and running 1.5 liters over max) usually will increase windage to the point the breather pisses vapour all over your clutch.

    I'd be looking to quantify the problem (if there is one) first, then see if there's a better lubricant on the market. Cooler + risk of fitting would be my last choice.

    Pete

  38. #38
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    I agree, but if you could smell the oil when I drained some last week, I strongly suspect you'd agree it had got too hot!

    Water never flashed to steam when the quaife was fitted.

    We are hoping to get temp logging setup before Donington

  39. #39
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    Hopefully better oil and some ducting will sort it, till, you know, the other thing
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stace View Post
    Hopefully better oil and some ducting will sort it,
    You have reminded me I hadn't mentioned that. I CAN'T use a better oil, the plate diff will only work with certain oil and that's not as good at high temperatures

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    You have reminded me I hadn't mentioned that. I CAN'T use a better oil, the plate diff will only work with certain oil and that's not as good at high temperatures
    Are you using a mineral or synthetic oil? I use:

    https://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/c...1458564774.pdf

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoof View Post
    Are you using a mineral or synthetic oil? I use:

    https://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/c...1458564774.pdf
    We both using this:

    http://www.gulfoil.ie/lubricants/Pro...S%2080W-90.pdf

  43. #43
    If temperature of the Gulf oil is being exceeded (i.e. it's too thin and causing premature wear) then I'd try the Morris oil.

    For 50 it's not an expensive experiment, and at 100'C is almost twice the viscosity of the Gulf equivalent.

    Once you know oil temperature, you can ask Gulf for the cSt vs. temp curve and ask Morris for the same - hopefully one of them is a viable option, or at least you know a target temperature (and viscosity) you want to cool to, so the lubricant is still effective.

  44. #44
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    Kaaz specifies Mineral oil only, which caused the issue with oil selection.

    I still aim to measure the temperature at Donington.

  45. #45

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    Kaaz specifies Mineral oil only, which caused the issue with oil selection.

    I still aim to measure the temperature at Donington.
    Gripper recommend the Morris, I'd be surprised if their friction plates are much different.

    I used to run a Silkolene similar to this: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-773-silk...ntial-oil.aspx

    Which was a mineral oil, the diff was noticeably quieter and chattered/grabbed less at low speeds using the Morris oil.

    My experience is basically the opposite of what KAAZ suggest on their website...

  47. #47
    Personally instead of faffing with oils....

    I’d fit a cooler setup, a temp sensor in the diff,

    Then at the next day try with and without pump rubning and see what happens to the temps.

    I feel a lot may be attributed to the flat floor/undertray etc reducing airflow around bottom of the engine.....joys of aero and what is the main problem for me on my rwd car
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoof View Post
    Gripper recommend the Morris, I'd be surprised if their friction plates are much different.

    I used to run a Silkolene similar to this: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-773-silk...ntial-oil.aspx

    Which was a mineral oil, the diff was noticeably quieter and chattered/grabbed less at low speeds using the Morris oil.

    My experience is basically the opposite of what KAAZ suggest on their website...
    I've only just flushed my box oil. Wish I'd known this earlier as my box chatters loads when warm.

    The difference in hot viscosity is notable as the datasheets you shared show.

    Gurds

  49. #49
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    Spoke to my mate in the industry and he recommends using a 75w-90 for higher temp such as the Titan LS.
    Also said that the gear oils don't like going over 110deg C.

    But, need to check the actual oil temp not just the casing to see what the window of operation is. Chatted to Nige about it yesterday.
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  50. #50
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    Diff oil measured at 105.

    Casing was 98


    After a longer session, casing 115. I don't need to measure the oil to know it's getting far too hot. As I suspected.

    Cooler will be fitted.

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