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Thread: Car - towing / low CO2 / 3 kids

  1. #1
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Car - towing / low CO2 / 3 kids

    I'll be choosing new company car in the next few months.

    Currently got a Disco Sport which is lovely, great for towing, decent space given my height and so on. However, it is awful on tax (about £310 per month).

    Now then, plug in cars are much better on the tax front but the %'s are going up and up over the next few years.

    It'll probably be the way I go as it's the least bad option.

    I love the 330e M-Sport but rear passenger space is limited.

    530e sadly just misses the list to due high list price.

    Mini Countryman has just been added, but is there enough rear space? It's also ALL4 so good for towing!

    Any other ideas?

    Buy you own doesn't work out as I do 30k miles per year and with such rubbish mileage allowance (11p!!) it wouldn't cover the servicing and so on (which is all funded if I choose company car).

    Am I missing any great options?

  2. #2
    Regular stevem's Avatar
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    Buy more cars. Not one to try and do everything.
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  3. #3
    Regular stevem's Avatar
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    Or sell 1-2 children.


    To buy more cars.
    Simon no longer owes me anything, Dave does though.
    Floyd probably owes me at least twenty with the interest rolling up...

  4. #4
    Regular Ian H's Avatar
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    similar situation to us.

    Judes car will be company option next time so taxed.
    I will get the tow car but limited to 120g co2.

    Mini won't be great for towing (think the max for the diesel is 1.5t let alone the hybrid.
    Drove the hybrid and its a nice car to be in (not to look at!)
    Disapointed with the roll on accerlaration but good off the line and frugal for town driving.

    Not sure on bmw towing either with the 'e' range.
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  5. #5
    Regular Tim in Yorkshire's Avatar
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    Buy an old Disco 2 (feel free to insert an altenative 4x4 here, a late P38 Range Rover of the V8 variety would be good) for towing/weekend duties, and more tax efficient car for every day
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  6. #6
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    Friend with similar CO2 tax challenge plumped for new XC90 Hybrid. He initially liked it but it's been a massive pain in the arse with teething niggles for all of the tech. His was one of the first, I'd like to think they've sorted them out now?

  7. #7
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    The other option is get Helen the big wagon / tow car and I get a Golf GTE or something.

    She has an S-Max but could swap for Landcruiser (my suggestion) or an ML (she likes them - so do I to befair).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    The other option is get Helen the big wagon / tow car and I get a Golf GTE or something.

    She has an S-Max but could swap for Landcruiser (my suggestion) or an ML (she likes them - so do I to befair).
    Do this IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
    Do this IMO
    Same issue for me, and same vote as Chris! If UB has one it must be good!

    I tried to find the best compromise but there is nothing that works, without going to an XC90 like Ste said. The monthly cost on that would break me :D. Our scheme is really poor :(.

    Small caveat: I tried SC using my CC and her having a tow car. It predictably fell apart when I needed my CC and she got fed up with the compromised tow car. Life is far simpler with SC having her own car (and her car always being the newest and nicest) and me having the 5 (which tows nicely). Tony and I discussed this on FB the other day :D...

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  10. #10
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    I'd rather use CC for towing due to additional wear and strain but the CO2 rules penalise badly for a car with the ability to tow.

    I'll see if anything else becomes available in the meantime and if not I'll go the tow car is the owned car and I'll get something smaller for occasional child duties but mainly just for me.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    I'd rather use CC for towing due to additional wear and strain but the CO2 rules penalise badly for a car with the ability to tow.

    I'll see if anything else becomes available in the meantime and if not I'll go the tow car is the owned car and I'll get something smaller for occasional child duties but mainly just for me.
    This is where I was / what I was trying to do. However, what if the Golf E or 330e saved you lots vs. a tow company car, and you use the saving to either swap the tow car out more (every three years) or set it aside for possible repair bills. We took the cash because the car scheme is crap (have I mentioned this :D?) and I didn't want SC to be burdened with my need to tow. Even with a few issues down the road, we should save a fortune by running SC's 1 series and my 5 vs. a company car and dedicated tow barge or adding more cars to the mix. So far my net CC cash equivalent more than covers the costs of running both cars (including depreciation). Obviously, a big repair bill dents the profit and owning is more stressful. Those risks and 'emotional' costs impacts aren't to be underestimated.
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  12. #12
    Regular Tim in Yorkshire's Avatar
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    This is why 3 or more cars are needed for a 2 adult house hold when running older vehicles.

    If the worst happens and two are out of play I can always cycle to work or take the tractor (both would probably take the same time!).

    Although the girlfriend having the newest/more reliable vehicle does make things easier...
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  13. #13
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brando View Post
    Stuff
    I agree in principle but due to mileage the take the cash option for my level of mileage doesn't make sense.

    Or have I missed the intent?

  14. #14
    Almost none of the current plugin hybrids can tow a reasonable amount at the moment, even the PHEV can only tow 1500kg. We looked at the 3 & 5 and they can't tow at all

    Hope it will improve unless you can afford a range rover hybrid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    I agree in principle but due to mileage the take the cash option for my level of mileage doesn't make sense.

    Or have I missed the intent?
    I get that, but I didn't convey my point very well... In my situ it made sense to jettison the CC. In your's, I'd go for a tax/money saving hybrid/electric CC and use the money saved vs. getting a tow CC to deal with the additional wear and tear of towing on your own tow car. At some point, you have to compromise / draw the line and I reckon you can get a better setup doing that vs. trying to find a unicorn tow CC because you want to avoid the wear on your own car.

    Edit: All that said, Tony did 45k a year in something faster than an e46 m3 :D and he didn't lose much money on it either.

    Edit2: Am I helping :D
    Last edited by Brando; 11-08-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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    Regular stevem's Avatar
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    Imagine the horror of having to buy all your own cars...
    Simon no longer owes me anything, Dave does though.
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  17. #17
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Regardez le tax!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Regardez le tax!
    yeah, but no.
    Cash allowance 40% tax, car allowance 40% of Bik. I can't chose how much tax I pay on PAYE...
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  19. #19
    Regular Floyd's Avatar
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    What is a company car?
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  20. #20
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjturner View Post
    yeah, but no.
    Cash allowance 40% tax, car allowance 40% of Bik. I can't chose how much tax I pay on PAYE...

    I'm just saying it's not the perk it once was.

    90% of my mileage is business use.

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  21. #21
    Regular simonsaunders's Avatar
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    So, all the builder types go for a crew-cab pickup for tax reasons. Applicable to you?

    The VW thing is meant to be the most comfy of the lot and a Merc (Nissan based) is just around the corner.

    Look in to it, I'm not sure 'if you need the right job'.

    For similar reasons, look at a VW Kombi or whatever.

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    For the miles you do, low emmison company cars are a pretty rubbish option. I'd pay a little more tax & get something capable of doing the trips in a bit of comfort.

    You are still saving a shed load of £'s against buying it yourself & can put some of that towards a family tow car.
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  23. #23
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsaunders View Post
    So, all the builder types go for a crew-cab pickup for tax reasons. Applicable to you?

    The VW thing is meant to be the most comfy of the lot and a Merc (Nissan based) is just around the corner.

    Look in to it, I'm not sure 'if you need the right job'.

    For similar reasons, look at a VW Kombi or whatever.

    ***

    I really like pick-ups. It is the red neck / gypsy in me.

    That's more of a VAT swiz?

  24. #24
    Regular simonsaunders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    That's more of a VAT swiz?
    No idea.

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    Thought 'bout this some more...

    If you want to save money get two nice private cars.

    If you want a company tow barge then g series 518d touring and gun the crap out of it in sport mode with the poverty hotel on the back. All tourings get bagged suspension and self levelling. An aftermarket tow bar will be cheaper than factory, but the factory fit is very well done.
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    That's more of a VAT swiz?
    And lots more....

    I was looking just in case I went contracting as it has big benefits
    If it's a commercial vehicle the BIK is calculated differently, its a fixed rate irrespective of the vehicle and any fuel allowance is a one off amount not based on the amount you used. So lots cheaper. Link
    For the 2017/18 tax year, BIK for pickups is fixed at £3,230. So if you pay tax at 20% that’s just £646 a year or £53.83 a month. For a 40% tax payer it works out at £1,292 for the year or £107.67 a month.

    Company car drivers are taxed on private-use fuel that's paid for by the employer, and again pickups can bring big savings here.
    The 2017/2018 taxable beneift amount is £610 - and you'll be taxed at 20% or 40% of that, depending on your banding.
    But most of the pick ups are rough ride and all are noticeably a step down from cars. If you're going to get one, try and test drive those with leaf springs vs coils all round. I liked the VW Amok

    The other downside is most company car schemes don't allow them...
    Last edited by jjturner; 12-08-2017 at 05:28 AM.
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    Kia Sorento?

    Skoda Kodiaq?
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  28. #28
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Kodiaq doesn't fit 3 across middle.

    Sorento CO2 starts at 149

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    Regular Chris D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
    What is a company car?
    Quite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Buy you own doesn't work out as I do 30k miles per year and with such rubbish mileage allowance (11p!!) it wouldn't cover the servicing and so on (which is all funded if I choose company car.
    Doing 30,000 business miles in your own car (if you opted out and took the cash) would net you £9,000 in ppm from your company and the top up in tax relief using the Inland Revenue approved mileage rates. That's per annum, and doesn't include the cash allowance you'd get from your company.....

    You must be able to fund and service an enjoyable motor for that sort of cash? Could you buy your Disco Sport and continue using it outside the CC scheme and take the cash?

    TC.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjturner View Post
    And lots more....

    I was looking just in case I went contracting as it has big benefits
    If it's a commercial vehicle the BIK is calculated differently, its a fixed rate irrespective of the vehicle and any fuel allowance is a one off amount not based on the amount you used. So lots cheaper. Link

    But most of the pick ups are rough ride and all are noticeably a step down from cars. If you're going to get one, try and test drive those with leaf springs vs coils all round. I liked the VW Amok

    The other downside is most company car schemes don't allow them...
    If you're looking at something like my DCIV Transit then you also have to be careful with payloads. If it doesn't have a payload capability of 1000kg then HMRC view it as a car and tax accordingly.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tallchap View Post
    Doing 30,000 business miles in your own car (if you opted out and took the cash) would net you £9,000 in ppm from your company and the top up in tax relief using the Inland Revenue approved mileage rates. That's per annum, and doesn't include the cash allowance you'd get from your company.....

    You must be able to fund and service an enjoyable motor for that sort of cash? Could you buy your Disco Sport and continue using it outside the CC scheme and take the cash?

    TC.
    If I take car allowance rather than car I can still only claim 11pppm rather than 45p so sadly that doesn't work out.

  33. #33
    Regular Ian H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    If I take car allowance rather than car I can still only claim 11pppm rather than 45p so sadly that doesn't work out.
    Why aren't you allowed to claim tax relief difference on the mileage above your 11p?
    (10k - 45p ppm, >10k - 25p ppm)
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian H View Post
    Why aren't you allowed to claim tax relief difference on the mileage above your 11p?
    (10k - 45p ppm, >10k - 25p ppm)
    I need to look in to the tax relief thing.

    From what I've read, my employer's take on it is if you qualify for a company car, then you get a reduced per mile rate. Mine is marginally more generous than Dave's. If you opt out of the car scheme and take the allowance instead, the rate remains the same.

    Only those that don't get a company car / car allowance get the full 45p per mile rate.

    Someone did say to me that I can then chase tax relief via self assessment, but I'm a tax numpty.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsaunders View Post
    I need to look in to the tax relief thing.

    From what I've read, my employer's take on it is if you qualify for a company car, then you get a reduced per mile rate. Mine is marginally more generous than Dave's. If you opt out of the car scheme and take the allowance instead, the rate remains the same.

    Only those that don't get a company car / car allowance get the full 45p per mile rate.

    Someone did say to me that I can then chase tax relief via self assessment, but I'm a tax numpty.
    If you don't do a self assesment then it should in theory work out in the rub but it tends to lag by a couple of years as it relies on your P11D from one year changing your Tax code the year after.

    If you are doing a reasonable amount of company mileage might be worth doing a self assessment and getting the difference back that way.

    I used to do it that way until our company changed its policy so for an expense point of view the pay 45ppm but they then make a reduction to our monthly salary so in affect they are only paying 18ppm. Doing it this way the company saves on NI contributions and the employee still gets the 45ppm as the reduction in tax makes up for the reduction in salary that month.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    If I take car allowance rather than car I can still only claim 11pppm rather than 45p so sadly that doesn't work out.
    You claim the balance via HMRC.

  37. #37
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    @daniel, @jamie

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian H View Post
    Why aren't you allowed to claim tax relief difference on the mileage above your 11p?
    (10k - 45p ppm, >10k - 25p ppm)
    This & self assess straight off so you don't then need to wait for your code to catch up. Simples
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  39. #39
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Surprised I've not come across this before.

    What's the logic?

  40. #40
    Regular stevem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Surprised I've not come across this before.
    Have you considered getting an accountant ?
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    Floyd probably owes me at least twenty with the interest rolling up...

  41. #41
    Regular Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem View Post
    have you considered getting a good accountant ?
    ftfy
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  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Surprised I've not come across this before.

    What's the logic?
    + go back three years on old mileage.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem View Post
    Have you considered getting an accountant ?

    Good plan

  44. #44
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    + go back three years on old mileage.

    Only applies if you use your own car, Shirley?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
    ftfy

    Oi you

  46. #46
    Regular simonsaunders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Oi you
    https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-em...age-fuel-costs

    If I read this right, even you as a company car driver can get tax relief if there is a shortfall between what you can claim from work and what it actually costs you.

    Looks like I can claim back £800. A little bit more research to do... but on the face of it, mpg concerns on boring company miles go out of the window too. How much is that V8 Mustang a month...?
    Last edited by simonsaunders; 14-08-2017 at 05:29 PM.

  47. #47
    Regular Ian H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Surprised I've not come across this before.

    What's the logic?
    me too

    Quote Originally Posted by stevem View Post
    Have you considered getting an accountant ?
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
    Only applies if you use your own car, Shirley?
    Nope.
    There are rules but you can claim tax relief on difference between paid rate and allowances as I posted earlier (45p/25p).

    Need to fill out a self assessment to claim.

    Happy to help.
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  48. #48
    Regular simonsaunders's Avatar
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    Got my numbers way off - covered more miles and, at times, a lower rate than I thought (on our expenses tool, I don't claim a cash price, just state the miles, fuel and engine size). When I had the Ibiza, it was down to 10p a mile at times.

    £1,735. For the last two tax years.

    Got a bit of topping and tailing to so before claiming, but well chuffed with that, if indeed that is the final figure.

  49. #49
    Regular Dave G's Avatar
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    So if you have a company car and you spend more on fuel than you get reimbursed you can claim the difference.

    Quote: 'You can claim tax relief on the money you’ve spent on fuel or electricity for business trips in your company car. Keep records to show the actual cost of the fuel or electricity you’ve bought or used.

    If your employer reimburses only some of the money, you can claim relief on the difference.'


    If you use your own car, well bugger me and call me a goat, it appears you can claim the difference.

    Might actually work out better if I choose my own car.

    There's a loophole I didn't know about.

    By the way, bellends, I'm a chartered accountant but management not financial.....

  50. #50
    Regular tallchap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsaunders View Post
    Got my numbers way off - covered more miles and, at times, a lower rate than I thought (on our expenses tool, I don't claim a cash price, just state the miles, fuel and engine size). When I had the Ibiza, it was down to 10p a mile at times.

    £1,735. For the last two tax years.

    Got a bit of topping and tailing to so before claiming, but well chuffed with that, if indeed that is the final figure.
    Nice one Simon!

    After you've done this on your tax return, the tax man should adjust your tax code for the future, so you'll get the benefit monthly, but you'll still have to a tax return and there'll be an adjustment up or down based on your actuals.

    TC.
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