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rollsound
27-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Well, I couldn't hold off any longer. Its November and all advice and weather reports stated that the chances of having a weekend of decent driving conditions were slim. Though timing for my work and finances were both in order, I had to risk it.

I booked through Dino from the Nurburgring Experience, as I wanted to have guidance for my first time, and he was excellent in replying to my silly queeries and put me up at Martin's place 'Burgstube', just under the castle.

When my Dad and I arrived on friday evening Martin sat us down with a DVD and full blown commentry about lines and a complementary list of everything that can AND WILL go wrong if you are going to be silly. I have to say that this made me more nervous than I'd been before, but it is understandable that somebody who regularly hosts groups of people will see a lot of incidents, and he rightfully feels a duty to pass on the knowledge to newcomers, so I took it on board.

After some beers (not too many as I couldn't sleep the night before from being too full of ferry beers) and an excellent nights sleep, we awoke to nothing whatsoever. Thats to say that visibility in the fog was maybe 20 feet!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/cpcampion/IMG_8517.jpg

Apparently the fog would clear by 11 or 12, so that was enough time to fill up (breakfast and 102 ron fuel), find a jetwash, recce our new surroundings and gather up some nerves. It was real cool that all the roads in the nearby area are used by ringers, so there's always some fast looking stripped out racer coming round the corner towards you. And this was LOW season!?? It was also pleasant to realise that everything is totally 'geared' (ahem) towards cars in a large perimeter around the ring. So - friendly locals then :)

In Adenau about 1130 we witnessed an unearthly sound of a Saab with 888's coming - the first few tester cars! We saw them drying up the racing line nicely and headed to the main car park.

A quick chat with some dutch boys in a scooby armada (who weren't going on track yet because they had 'too much party' the previous night..) we went on our tentative lap. Really slow 11:45, and just working the lines out loud to each other. Felt pretty good after that and the next few laps were 10:01, 9:29, 9:17, 9:03, 9:16. End of the first day complete and pretty happy with circa 9 minutes best performance, and still alive.

martin kindly feined admiration back at the hotel that night but watching the videos back it look far less impressive than it felt at the time hahaaa.. lifting off on plain straights, revving way too high.. what a mess! Though I'd had fun, and was prepared that Sunday's weather might not be so kind.......... but it was!

First lap 9:18, then an 8:56. Great! broken the 9 minutes. Now I wanted to take Joel out for a few pointers on my lines, but only got as far as Aremberg when a horrible shuddering/whirring situation occurred with my lovely (up till then) indestructable AP 6 pots. So we limped to the car park.

Ah.. pads. lucky I brought some spares. Not too great with a spanner so I didn't manage to change them myself before the trip.. but Joel came to the rescue with his skills and tools. Cheers!! My only job was to jack up the car and operate the wheel nuts. We bedded in the new pads as much as possible and went on another smoothish lap, but the shuddering recommenced. mmmm. oh.. wait. my heart sank..
I realised I hadn't tightened the nuts on the front left wheel. FAIL if ever there was one.. I'm lucky my wheel stayed on!

But stay on it did and that first lap was 8:57 shuddering and all. It was getting late now so stupidity realised, I tightened the nuts and went out and did an 8:41. When the brakes heated up they still shook, but when they're cold, they're fine! so its a bit of a hard one for my mechanic to diagnose, since we haven't got a nurburgring in Edinburgh to heat them up!

Anyway safely home after a nice power run on a perfect stretch of Autobahn. Now all I wish to do is return and work on them lines!

Another addition to the pilgrims here.. love it.

Here's the you tube video of my fastest lap anyway.. comments of any kind entirely welcome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-hgLEiu-4 ('http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-hgLEiu-4')


Thanks,
Chris.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5161613201_ed899b5133_b_d.jpg

Darren Langeveld
27-11-2010, 01:10 PM
Nice :thumb:

Nige
27-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Nice report :thumb:

Very good quality video, what camera are you using ?

Nice smooth driving, I like that. :thumb:

One tiny point (somebody was bound to mention it, so I may aswell get it out of the way...), don`t get hung up on timing. My first trip, I timed every lap, just like you, but you can get too focussed on the timing and keep pushing to go faster and faster. Enjoy the experience and leave the stopwatch behind next time, if you video your laps, look at them at the end of the trip instead ;)

How much power does that thing have ?

Joel
27-11-2010, 02:28 PM
I was only in charge of the hammer, your honour.

Good report, Chris. The first of many to come I hope :thumb:

rollsound
27-11-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Nige@Nov 27 2010, 03:14 PM
Nice report :thumb:

Very good quality video, what camera are you using ?

Nice smooth driving, I like that. :thumb:

One tiny point (somebody was bound to mention it, so I may aswell get it out of the way...), don`t get hung up on timing. My first trip, I timed every lap, just like you, but you can get too focussed on the timing and keep pushing to go faster and faster. Enjoy the experience and leave the stopwatch behind next time, if you video your laps, look at them at the end of the trip instead ;)

How much power does that thing have ?
Thanks Darren!

The Camera is a Gopro HD.

Cheers Nige!

I totally hear you about the timing, and in fact before I left, that was my intention, just as it happened with all the talk of 'times' at the hotel, my dad just used his stopwatch of his own will and I didn't stop him.

I think if I'd been over confident with my track knowledge then I might have tried to push, but every lap I did on this trip was a learning-the-track sort of vibe. timing was indcidental really. (really!)

i'll definately take the suggestion on board for my next trip, i've got a sense of whats a good lap and whats not now anyway so less desire to time it.

power of the thing is 330bhp and 330 lbft's. does me fine :)


Chris.

rollsound
27-11-2010, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Joel@Nov 27 2010, 03:28 PM
I was only in charge of the hammer, your honour.
expertly hammered, too!:thumb:
it was the spanner with the wrench I worry about.

Gary Kinghorn
27-11-2010, 05:09 PM
I like the Subaru picture :thumb:

Oli H
27-11-2010, 11:43 PM
Me likey, goes well and nicely driven. Can't wait to get out there next year.

Hoping to get a GoPro HD from Father Christmas too :D

Armour
28-11-2010, 09:41 AM
Nice to see some more Scots on here :thumb:

Looks like you had a good trip.

Haven't watched the video yet, interested to see the quality, when we have run Go Pros on karts, the footage has been terrible, but that's maybe to due with lack of suspension :fish:

Al

rollsound
28-11-2010, 06:03 PM
I like the Subaru picture :thumb:
not taken near nurburg however. :thumb:


Me likey, goes well and nicely driven. Can't wait to get out there next year.
Hoping to get a GoPro HD from Father Christmas too :D
cheers mate! might see you there next year then lol. Goro HD definately cool, need to get it on a few more outings now, to earn its keep.. Maybe i'll do one of those 'Snow Fun' videos as there aint no trackdays now.


Nice to see some more Scots on here :thumb:
Looks like you had a good trip.
Haven't watched the video yet, interested to see the quality, when we have run Go Pros on karts, the footage has been terrible, but that's maybe to due with lack of suspension :fish:

Al


:wave: let me know what you reckon to the vid then.. was it GoPro 'HD' you were using, not the 'WIDE'. also there's just some exposure settings - then a firm mount should have yeilded pretty good results on a kart? if I wouoldn't mind trying it on a kart.:chin:

Daniel
29-11-2010, 06:29 AM
Thanks for the report :thumb:

What pads did you run?

Kev_G
29-11-2010, 09:01 AM
Now that's a pritty Scooby! Nice report and I'll watch the vid when I get to a pc

Armour
29-11-2010, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by rollsound@Nov 28 2010, 07:03 PM
:wave: let me know what you reckon to the vid then.. was it GoPro 'HD' you were using, not the 'WIDE'. also there's just some exposure settings - then a firm mount should have yeilded pretty good results on a kart? if I wouoldn't mind trying it on a kart.:chin:
Forgot to watch the video when I got in, youtube is blocked at work, will get a look tonight.

I think it is a Wide on a Ride Hero mount, it's my mates camera, i'd need to check with him.

rollsound
29-11-2010, 10:18 PM
Thanks for the report :thumb:

What pads did you run?
they were ferodo 2500's. i was recommended the performance frictions though, only after i'd ordered replacement 2500's. oh well, next time.



Now that's a pritty Scooby! Nice report and I'll watch the vid when I get to a pc
thanks!


Forgot to watch the video when I got in, youtube is blocked at work, will get a look tonight.

I think it is a Wide on a Ride Hero mount, it's my mates camera, i'd need to check with him.

ah.. the wide is the old one.. only standard def!

Armour
29-11-2010, 10:34 PM
The quality is miles better than one we use.

This is my driver with the Go Pro onboard.

http://vimeo.com/13419780 ('http://vimeo.com/13419780')

Your car looks like it goes well :thumb:

Al

Daniel
30-11-2010, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by rollsound@Nov 29 2010, 11:18 PM

Thanks for the report :thumb:

What pads did you run?
they were ferodo 2500's. i was recommended the performance frictions though, only after i'd ordered replacement 2500's. oh well, next time.



thanks!


Forgot to watch the video when I got in, youtube is blocked at work, will get a look tonight.

I think it is a Wide on a Ride Hero mount, it's my mates camera, i'd need to check with him.

ah.. the wide is the old one.. only standard def!
Your pads will have left deposits on your discs. Had the same on my last trip.

Simon
30-11-2010, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by d&#045;anie&#045;l+Nov 30 2010, 07:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (d-anie-l @ Nov 30 2010, 07:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rollsound@Nov 29 2010, 11:18 PM

Thanks for the report :thumb:

What pads did you run?
they were ferodo 2500&#39;s. i was recommended the performance frictions though, only after i&#39;d ordered replacement 2500&#39;s. oh well, next time.



thanks&#33;


Forgot to watch the video when I got in, youtube is blocked at work, will get a look tonight.

I think it is a Wide on a Ride Hero mount, it&#39;s my mates camera, i&#39;d need to check with him.

ah.. the wide is the old one.. only standard def&#33;
Your pads will have left deposits on your discs. Had the same on my last trip. [/b][/quote]
This :angry: . If you look at the discs you will see patches of deposit material :( . The only way to clean them is to wet & dry the discs or use an aggressive brake pad to try & remove the deposits. If this does not work then get the discs skimmed. That&#39;s what I had to do in the end & they have been fine since :thumb:

DS2500 = shite (unless you are DaveG the Ferodo iPhone luvva :fishing:).

Love the car pic btw :thumb:

Daniel
30-11-2010, 08:28 AM
Don&#39;t bother to just swap pads. Phone AP and speak to Pete Collen and explain the situation. He should offer to skim for you FOC if you can get them off your car.

orsonbuggy
30-11-2010, 03:19 PM
Interesting first trip for you and thanks for writing it up :D

Nice car, smooth driving and no "moments" - good stuff :thumb:

rollsound
30-11-2010, 09:22 PM
thanks Daniel and Simon.. this seems important - just to clarify, we&#39;re talking about the shuddering I&#39;m experiencing when the brakes are very hot? When the wheel was off when we were changing pads at the ring, I did see blotches around the discs.

So i shouldn&#39;t even bother to check warped discs or anything else? its definately the DS2500&#39;s leaving their scum behind?

Hmmm. I&#39;ll definately call the AP chaps if this is true&#33;



ps. Cheers Armour and Orsonbuggy B)

I only had one &#39;moment&#39; the whole trip trying to stop before careering through the armco and into Adenau. wasn&#39;t that bad though.

Nige
30-11-2010, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by rollsound@Nov 30 2010, 11:22 PM
So i shouldn&#39;t even bother to check warped discs or anything else? its definately the DS2500&#39;s leaving their scum behind?
Most of Northloop firmly believe DS2500`s are crap. Braking performance when new is fine, but once on track, they leave behind pad deposits that cause brake judder.

Apart from DaveG..... He thinks they are the bestest pads in the whole wide world &#33;its just that we just don`t use them properly.. :D

rollsound
01-12-2010, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Nige@Nov 30 2010, 10:25 PM
Most of Northloop firmly believe DS2500`s are crap. Braking performance when new is fine, but once on track, they leave behind pad deposits that cause brake judder.

Apart from DaveG..... He thinks they are the bestest pads in the whole wide world &#33;its just that we just don`t use them properly.. :D
I see&#33; I&#39;d heard them slated a lot before, but I sort of defended them by virtue of the fact i&#39;d had the same set on 3 trackdays at knockhill and never had an issue once. Knockhill is pretty hard on brakes too (and the rest of the car (&#33;) )

but this was truely ridiculous shuddering/whirring, wobbling steering wheel etc. at it worst the steering wheel was shaking without even touching the brake pedal.

This is an outrage. hehe. :D

Gary Kinghorn
01-12-2010, 06:26 PM
I used DS2500&#39;s on the 205 for ages and they were fine :fish:

Dave G
01-12-2010, 07:28 PM
The concensus is they are better on lighter cars.

I don&#39;t go that slow and I find them to be great.

If you come in off track and sit there with your foot on the brake etc or things like that, or don&#39;t use them HARD they will leave deposits on your brakes.

Anyway, Pooky is due along with that official test PROVING they are shit.

He&#39;s only been three and a half years with it, must be ready sometime soon. :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:

Daniel
01-12-2010, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by rollsound@Nov 30 2010, 10:22 PM
thanks Daniel and Simon.. this seems important - just to clarify, we&#39;re talking about the shuddering I&#39;m experiencing when the brakes are very hot? When the wheel was off when we were changing pads at the ring, I did see blotches around the discs.

So i shouldn&#39;t even bother to check warped discs or anything else? its definately the DS2500&#39;s leaving their scum behind?

Hmmm. I&#39;ll definately call the AP chaps if this is true&#33;



ps. Cheers Armour and Orsonbuggy B)

I only had one &#39;moment&#39; the whole trip trying to stop before careering through the armco and into Adenau. wasn&#39;t that bad though.
yeah, get them off and skimmed. If you really abused them once high/low spotted with the deposits (like I did) you might have warped them.

rollsound
02-12-2010, 07:54 AM
All great Advice thanks very much&#33; I&#39;ll hopefully get a chance next week to have them looked at. I&#39;ll try Pete Collen on the phone first. thanks&#33;

Chris.

sax0joe
06-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Looks a lil slower than i expected (due to the quick btg time) in the corners but boy do you thrash that thing in a straight line&#33;&#33;&#33; What speed did you get up to?&#33;

Tim
06-12-2010, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by sax0joe@Dec 6 2010, 03:36 PM
Looks a lil slower than i expected (due to the quick btg time) in the corners but boy do you thrash that thing in a straight line&#33;&#33;&#33; What speed did you get up to?&#33;
If you look "quick" when driving, nine times out of ten you aren&#39;t.

Your saxo will NOT out corner this car.

rollsound
06-12-2010, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by sax0joe@Dec 6 2010, 03:36 PM
Looks a lil slower than i expected (due to the quick btg time) in the corners but boy do you thrash that thing in a straight line&#33;&#33;&#33; What speed did you get up to?&#33;
Hi Joe, yea probably just being still cautious, bein my first time. Speed wise, the needle gets to 150 on the first fast bit, and 125 on the back straight bit, but the speedo is probably reading about 8% or so high (as most do probably).

its a pretty well set up car so just need to get the driver as capable and we&#39;ll be away.

:thumb:

rollsound
06-12-2010, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Tim@Dec 6 2010, 03:43 PM
If you look "quick" when driving, nine times out of ten you aren&#39;t.

Your saxo will NOT out corner this car.
that video of the radical SR8 then, must be the one out of ten, cos it looks bloody quick as well as being bloody quick. frightening.

Joel
06-12-2010, 09:03 PM
Chris, your peak speed on the datalog from that lap I sat in on was 135 approaching SX, but you were very slow out of Fluplatz (vmin 72). I can&#39;t remember, but maybe we encountered a slower car there. Certainly, with a good run through Flugplatz, 140+ would be easily achievable on that stretch.

rollsound
06-12-2010, 10:23 PM
that is interesting - so with an 8% over-reading, at 135 the needle would be showing 146. So must have got a slightly better exit from Fluplatz on my youtube lap. :)

loving that datalogger gizmo.

welly gt
10-12-2010, 09:24 PM
Nice looking car and excellent quality video :thumb:

Prawn
10-12-2010, 10:38 PM
Joel, what datalogging equipment are you using? sounds very interesting, I&#39;d love to be able to review laps like that.
It&#39;s a shame the forum search function isn&#39;t working, as I&#39;m sure there&#39;s LOADS of data logging into on here, but without searching through THOUSANDS of posts, I can&#39;t find them&#33;

Joel
10-12-2010, 11:37 PM
It&#39;s just a simple Performancebox GPS logger:

http://performancebox.co.uk/ ('http://performancebox.co.uk/')

If you wish, you can then also use Trackvision software to overlay the data onto video:

http://www.trackvision.net/index.shtml ('http://www.trackvision.net/index.shtml')

Here&#39;s one I made earlier:

http://www.vimeo.com/17168782 ('http://www.vimeo.com/17168782')

rollsound
12-12-2010, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by welly gt@Dec 10 2010, 10:24 PM
Nice looking car and excellent quality video :thumb:
Thank you very much Welly&#33; B)

rollsound
12-12-2010, 11:37 AM
I spoke to Pete Collen at AP Racing and he said that if the discs are 3 years old then they&#39;ll be too corroded to skim, but I should try and rub them down with some 200 grade wet+ dry (I think wet+dry anyway)

I also asked my mechanic and he mentioned I could swap the left and right discs which makes more aggressive braking (due to the grooves) and will effectively do the same thing as rubbing down.
:chin:
has anyone done this with their grooved discs?


Chris.

Daniel
13-12-2010, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by rollsound@Dec 12 2010, 12:37 PM
I spoke to Pete Collen at AP Racing and he said that if the discs are 3 years old then they&#39;ll be too corroded to skim, but I should try and rub them down with some 200 grade wet+ dry (I think wet+dry anyway)

I also asked my mechanic and he mentioned I could swap the left and right discs which makes more aggressive braking (due to the grooves) and will effectively do the same thing as rubbing down.
:chin:
has anyone done this with their grooved discs?


Chris.
That won&#39;t work. You might also overheat them as the scopes will be going the wrong way.

c_w
14-12-2010, 03:07 PM
The grooves work either way really, it&#39;s only if the discs are handed (the central vanes) where you need to keep them on the right side.

Reading the first post I just knew "DS2500" was going to pop up later on... :D Awful pads, and sounds exactly like my experience of them, bought them a few months before the &#39;Ring, seemed ok on the road (though very dusty) but after the first few corners on the &#39;ring they were juddering like mad. :(

It&#39;s telling that most AP BBKs come with DS2500, all I can draw from that is that the majority of these kits are sold on the assumption that they&#39;re never going to see any hard work and merely a "mod" to look nice??

Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.

Prawn
14-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by c_w@Dec 14 2010, 04:07 PM


Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.
Agreed&#33;

I&#39;ve got the RS19&#39;s (predecessor to the RS29) in my 996 calipers on the front of my A3, and they were simply amazing.

Lap after lap they never lost bite at all, and never once overheated despite some serious abuse.

Will definitely be getting another set&#33;

rollsound
15-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by d&#045;anie&#045;l+Dec 13 2010, 09:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (d&#045;anie&#045;l &#064; Dec 13 2010, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
That won&#39;t work. You might also overheat them as the scopes will be going the wrong way.

[/b]
Hm, yes.. that is true.. more thinking needed then.

Originally posted by c_w@Dec 14 2010, 04:07 PM
The grooves work either way really, it&#39;s only if the discs are handed (the central vanes) where you need to keep them on the right side.

Reading the first post I just knew "DS2500" was going to pop up later on... :D Awful pads, and sounds exactly like my experience of them, bought them a few months before the &#39;Ring, seemed ok on the road (though very dusty) but after the first few corners on the &#39;ring they were juddering like mad. :(

It&#39;s telling that most AP BBKs come with DS2500, all I can draw from that is that the majority of these kits are sold on the assumption that they&#39;re never going to see any hard work and merely a "mod" to look nice??

Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.
maybe, but then the pads have been fine for knockhill, which is a hard braking circuit, and I defended the ds2500&#39;s until nurburgring.

there must be something particular about the ring that fecks them. perhaps extended periods on the brakes when learning the track etc, rather than the hard stamping you do at knockhill.

Originally posted by Prawn@Dec 14 2010, 11:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-c_w@Dec 14 2010, 04:07 PM


Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.
Agreed&#33;

I&#39;ve got the RS19&#39;s (predecessor to the RS29) in my 996 calipers on the front of my A3, and they were simply amazing.

Lap after lap they never lost bite at all, and never once overheated despite some serious abuse.

Will definitely be getting another set&#33;[/quote]
what about compared with performance friction pads?

Mark
16-12-2010, 12:10 PM
I ran PF two piece floating discs and 01 compound pads on my Impreza for track. They were epic.

c_w
16-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by rollsound+Dec 15 2010, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rollsound @ Dec 15 2010, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by d&#045;anie&#045;l@Dec 13 2010, 09:23 PM

That won&#39;t work. You might also overheat them as the scopes will be going the wrong way.


Hm, yes.. that is true.. more thinking needed then.

Originally posted by c_w@Dec 14 2010, 04:07 PM
The grooves work either way really, it&#39;s only if the discs are handed (the central vanes) where you need to keep them on the right side.

Reading the first post I just knew "DS2500" was going to pop up later on... :D Awful pads, and sounds exactly like my experience of them, bought them a few months before the &#39;Ring, seemed ok on the road (though very dusty) but after the first few corners on the &#39;ring they were juddering like mad. :(

It&#39;s telling that most AP BBKs come with DS2500, all I can draw from that is that the majority of these kits are sold on the assumption that they&#39;re never going to see any hard work and merely a "mod" to look nice??

Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.
maybe, but then the pads have been fine for knockhill, which is a hard braking circuit, and I defended the ds2500&#39;s until nurburgring.

there must be something particular about the ring that fecks them. perhaps extended periods on the brakes when learning the track etc, rather than the hard stamping you do at knockhill.

Originally posted by Prawn@Dec 14 2010, 11:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-c_w@Dec 14 2010, 04:07 PM


Pagid RS29s are what you want in there.
Agreed&#33;

I&#39;ve got the RS19&#39;s (predecessor to the RS29) in my 996 calipers on the front of my A3, and they were simply amazing.

Lap after lap they never lost bite at all, and never once overheated despite some serious abuse.

Will definitely be getting another set&#33;
what about compared with performance friction pads? [/b][/quote]
PF 01
Carbotech XP10
Pagid RS29
Carbone Lorraine RC6

I think any of the above would be a real eye opener HOWEVER the RS29s are the most suited to road use also as they don&#39;t squeal and hardly dust. Expensive but well worth it. And they also last ages; I would say they&#39;ll last longer than any of the others.

The RC6, XP10 and PF01 pads will probably give more braking power but with a big AP kit you might find them overkill and hard to modulate.

The &#39;Ring isn&#39;t hard on brakes, it is but not in the traditional sense. It&#39;s not good because you can often go out with cold brakes and then the first time they&#39;re used it&#39;s to drop from 120mph. It&#39;s the thermal shock that can cause judder problems - it&#39;s probably this that you found coupled with DS2500&#39;s tendency to judder anyway.

rollsound
18-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by c_w@Dec 16 2010, 04:22 PM

PF 01
Carbotech XP10
Pagid RS29
Carbone Lorraine RC6

I think any of the above would be a real eye opener HOWEVER the RS29s are the most suited to road use also as they don&#39;t squeal and hardly dust. Expensive but well worth it. And they also last ages; I would say they&#39;ll last longer than any of the others.

The RC6, XP10 and PF01 pads will probably give more braking power but with a big AP kit you might find them overkill and hard to modulate.

The &#39;Ring isn&#39;t hard on brakes, it is but not in the traditional sense. It&#39;s not good because you can often go out with cold brakes and then the first time they&#39;re used it&#39;s to drop from 120mph. It&#39;s the thermal shock that can cause judder problems - it&#39;s probably this that you found coupled with DS2500&#39;s tendency to judder anyway.
Thanks mate for this very very helpful post by the way&#33;

Cheers,
Chris.


I do plan to participate more on the forums, but just reading a lot at the moment :)

bad_roo
20-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Have to say, a lot of those lines looked like somebody with 100 laps under their belt, not 10.

Big throttle trail through Foxhole but that won&#39;t be a problem in the dry.

At 43s let the car stay right. Don&#39;t move to the left and try to apex the next corner as it&#39;s a non-corner. Instead keep right and let this gentle bend ease the car to the left hand side of the track for the next corner (Bastard Bend).

Same goes for 1m26s. Let the car drift right and then the right hand kink after the bridge will drift it left into position for Flugplatz.

You got sucked into Bergwerk with an early turn in. Didn&#39;t work too badly with the Beemer in front but you could carry a LOT more speed through here and all the way up Kesselchen.

Again, a trailing throttle on turn-in to Klostertal- this will catch you out in the wet.

I could see you were a little nervous with the steering through the first half of Pflanzgarten.

These are relatively minor issues. As said before, that&#39;s a very impressive lap for such an inexperienced Nurburgring driver. Well played.

rollsound
21-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Thanks for your kind comments-

I was told what the line was by martin at the hotel the previous night.. so just had to try and remember it.

and thanks for the tips too, I&#39;ve been looking up the names of the corners to see exactly what you meant. Which one is foxhole though?

about the trailing throttle - can you actually see oversteer? I&#39;m trying to see what you mean from the video. I don&#39;t think the car really suffers a lot with lift off oversteer just because the drive is light, so there&#39;s not a lot of engine braking resistance..

usually oversteer of any kind is very hard to come by in an impreza. shopping trolley-like understeer is more often the order of the day.

Nervous steering :lol: I was kind of deliberately sawing at the wheel to break tyre contact and chuck it around. As compared to Joels &#39;smooth&#39; lotus driving style , i found &#39;chucking&#39; to be much more fun. The car takes it well but is a bit savage to the eyes of rwd&#39;ers. not for the RWD purists but hey :) It could only have been more fun if it was a gravel track imo B)

i&#39;m dying to go back&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; getting that line haunts me. keep right there, flat through there, turn in there.. hurry up and end winter.

sax0joe
22-12-2010, 12:10 AM
The (Oops I said the F word) off steep downhill bit after aremburg that then goes uphill to adenau forst.

bad_roo
22-12-2010, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by rollsound@Dec 21 2010, 01:19 PM
about the trailing throttle - can you actually see oversteer? I&#39;m trying to see what you mean from the video. I don&#39;t think the car really suffers a lot with lift off oversteer just because the drive is light, so there&#39;s not a lot of engine braking resistance..

usually oversteer of any kind is very hard to come by in an impreza. shopping trolley-like understeer is more often the order of the day.

Going into high commitment fast corners like Schwedenkreuz and Klostertal on a dead throttle at modest speeds on a dry track isn&#39;t a problem in and of itself. As soon as you start getting a bit faster or the track gets a bit greasier, it&#39;s a recipe for lift-off oversteer. Doesn&#39;t matter if your car is fwd, rwd or 4wd. Basic physics.

rollsound
22-12-2010, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by bad_roo@Dec 22 2010, 10:24 AM

Going into high commitment fast corners like Schwedenkreuz and Klostertal on a dead throttle at modest speeds on a dry track isn&#39;t a problem in and of itself. As soon as you start getting a bit faster or the track gets a bit greasier, it&#39;s a recipe for lift-off oversteer. Doesn&#39;t matter if your car is fwd, rwd or 4wd. Basic physics.
Thanks, I&#39;ll watch out for that.
- might require a small change in my driving style&#33; So the answer is just to apply half throttle instead? Does everyone do this? how did I miss that memo?
:D

bad_roo
22-12-2010, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by rollsound+Dec 22 2010, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rollsound @ Dec 22 2010, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bad_roo@Dec 22 2010, 10:24 AM

Going into high commitment fast corners like Schwedenkreuz and Klostertal on a dead throttle at modest speeds on a dry track isn&#39;t a problem in and of itself. As soon as you start getting a bit faster or the track gets a bit greasier, it&#39;s a recipe for lift-off oversteer. Doesn&#39;t matter if your car is fwd, rwd or 4wd. Basic physics.
Thanks, I&#39;ll watch out for that.
- might require a small change in my driving style&#33; So the answer is just to apply half throttle instead? Does everyone do this? how did I miss that memo?
:D [/b][/quote]
And here, encapsulated in this post is the problem with modern TF.

I don&#39;t want to sound harsh, because we were all learners at driving on track at some stage, but what we are seeing in increasing numbers at the Ring are people who have learned where the track goes from Youtube or Forza and can pedal a car around at a reasonable clip as a result. What they don&#39;t have is the ability to handle a car at the limit. They have no appreciation of basic weight transfers, what&#39;s happening at the tyre contact patch, or the subtleties of the circuit&#39;s surface and grip changes.

So we get many drivers who have managed an 8&#39;45 BTG who are actually right at the limit of their talent. They then look at Youtube videos and see other drivers pedalling the same car to an 8:20 for example and just try to go faster with inevitable consequences.

Not all of this applies to you, but if you are serious about wanting to go faster on the Ring, it&#39;s worth getting some tuition. Not a dig or anything, just some friendly advice. You show a good deal of promise already and you could be a really useful driver if you let somebody help you with some theory and practice. :thumb:

rollsound
22-12-2010, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by bad_roo@Dec 22 2010, 08:12 PM

And here, encapsulated in this post is the problem with modern TF.

I don&#39;t want to sound harsh, because we were all learners at driving on track at some stage, but what we are seeing in increasing numbers at the Ring are people who have learned where the track goes from Youtube or Forza and can pedal a car around at a reasonable clip as a result. What they don&#39;t have is the ability to handle a car at the limit. They have no appreciation of basic weight transfers, what&#39;s happening at the tyre contact patch, or the subtleties of the circuit&#39;s surface and grip changes.

So we get many drivers who have managed an 8&#39;45 BTG who are actually right at the limit of their talent. They then look at Youtube videos and see other drivers pedalling the same car to an 8:20 for example and just try to go faster with inevitable consequences.

Not all of this applies to you, but if you are serious about wanting to go faster on the Ring, it&#39;s worth getting some tuition. Not a dig or anything, just some friendly advice. You show a good deal of promise already and you could be a really useful driver if you let somebody help you with some theory and practice. :thumb:


Chill&#33;&#33;

I know you said its not directed at me, but I&#39;m still putting up my defense&#33; I don&#39;t agree that I was near the limit of my talent in this video. I just didn&#39;t understand the technical terms. I haven&#39;t had much formal training, but I&#39;ve done a good number of trackdays in the pouring rain (+much karting in the rain too :D) and have owned this car for over 4 years so I&#39;m well aware of the limits of grip, weight shift, and its characteristics. I&#39;m not versed in articulating the feel of my car into words, so just some clarification is needed, and wisdom imparted.

The two corners you mention are fast bends, where the car will go light so i do know where you&#39;re coming from. As this was a slowish lap there were more moments off-throttle, but I always felt the conditions allowed it - which is surely the key.


anyhow and in any case,

I&#39;ve always wanted tuition, or even a caterham academy season one year. I&#39;ve got age on my side :D So what courses do you recommend then bad_roo?
I don&#39;t want to do another one of those 5in1 experience days, or have an instructor in my car at knockhill, cos I&#39;ve done all that, and I&#39;m not sure I learned anything. Some proper intensive handling course would be amazing. steering on the throttle, etc.

bad_roo
23-12-2010, 09:33 PM
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs172.ash2/41787_83031166964_2398069_n.jpg
:D

rollsound
23-12-2010, 09:51 PM
eloquent :thumb: