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Steven
07-09-2006, 06:26 PM
Both got 140bhp per ton.

So why does everybody tell me that the Pug is so much quicker?

Confused.

Tony
07-09-2006, 07:39 PM
Power per ton will roughly equalise cars in a straight line taking into account rwd/fwd and power/torque delivery, but the key issue in this instance will be gearing. The power delivery of the pug is all top end and has six tightly stacked ratios to take advantage of this. The BM has a rev limit of 6500rpm at a guess, has only five wider spaced gears and was designed to a very different set of criteria. If you 'raced' them side by side from 15mph in third I bet the BM would pull away until the pug came on cam.

Also around a circuit the Pug is lighter and more agile and would walk away from the BM particularly from Hohe Acht onwards. :thumb:

T

Uncle Benz
07-09-2006, 09:13 PM
Tony is right on this!! Power to weight does not always tell the story on track. A nimble car can make a mockery of big power machines on a twisty circuit. Much as I love my german cars and despise french clutter the Peugeot will be a quicker ring car straight out the box. Personally if find nothing more satisfying than watching small, cheap looking cars passing big buck wannabe supercars while the owners look suitably peeved!!

GVK
07-09-2006, 09:27 PM
Agreed,Also if you're used to driving FWD cars the BMW especially in the wet will be a pretty steep learning (sideways!) curve. :whistle:

My friend had a 325i sport and he was forever sideways in that thing, great fun, but you need to be awake :lol:

leavingeasy
07-09-2006, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Uncle Benz@Sep 7 2006, 09:13 PM
Tony is right on this!! Power to weight does not always tell the story on track. A nimble car can make a mockery of big power machines on a twisty circuit. Much as I love my german cars and despise french clutter the Peugeot will be a quicker ring car straight out the box. Personally if find nothing more satisfying than watching small, cheap looking cars passing big buck wannabe supercars while the owners look suitably peeved!!
Ferrari 360 vs. mk2 Golf par chance?

Uncle Benz
07-09-2006, 09:55 PM
Yesss I suppose that does spring to mind!

Tony
07-09-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Uncle Benz@Sep 7 2006, 10:13 PM
Tony is right on this!!
Is it possible to frame this thread please ;) :lol: :lol:

**takes a bow** :P

T

Dave Malings
08-09-2006, 05:32 AM
The pug is actually not lighter.......can't find absolute facts for the weight of the cars but it looks like we have in the red corner, our current champ, the 306 weighing in a 1215, and our challenger in the blue corner, the 325 at 1200.

Round one to the 325.

Dave G
08-09-2006, 08:59 AM
I would place my money strongly on the Pug.

I have owned 2 x 325i Sports, and been in numerous others.

They aren't slow, but they certainly aren't quick! Quite torquey, but lazy.

The Pug is a buzz box, and I have no doubt that it would eat one around a track. The weight thing is odd though.

More frictional losses to RWD, and maybe the fact that the later 2.5 engines (lower compression) rarely make 171bhp, more like 161bhp.

The 106GTi I just picked up would sit with a 325i Sport I reckon. I'd put some cash on it! :ph43r:

Tony
08-09-2006, 10:03 AM
I have an eye on 'doing a Gary' and buying an E30 325i. How much power can you get out of the old 2.5i engine if you fit Schrick cams, induction kit etc?

T

Dave G
08-09-2006, 10:27 AM
Good induction, exhaust, shrick cams, Big bore throttle body and a chip you should see 190bhp.

Will be a good motor then.

Alternatively get a bottom end from a 525e (2.7) and make some mods and get 200bhp and extra torque.

Would be pretty darn good with 190bhp.

:)

Tony
08-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Tempting though that is that sounds quite expensive. Surely it would be cheaper for me to buy a Nissan S14 200SX which will produce 280bhp with just a chip and induction kit :whistle:

My concern is that I had a go in an E30 M3 Evo Sport (237bhp) and whilst it handled beautifully it didn't feel very quick.........

T

Dave Malings
08-09-2006, 12:24 PM
......we need a chav smilie :P

Dave G
08-09-2006, 12:36 PM
Two of my mates have imported Silvias, producing almost 300bhp. They are awesome cars, with coilovers and alsorts of gadgetry they are great machines!

Two of them will be at the 'Ring in October!

One of the guys is a drift hero, so we may have some fun!

Tony
08-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Dave Malings@Sep 8 2006, 01:24 PM
......we need a chav smilie :P
That's what I am worried about and why I haven't purchased one before now :lol: :lol:

However, my desire NOT to kill the M3 is now outweighing my anti-chav prejudices!! ;)

T

Ryan W
08-09-2006, 02:02 PM
Karan's old 2.7 was quite naughty Dave, but IMO the 200SX's are just more fun!

But... a 306 Rallye will beat a 306 GTi-6, yet both will beat a sport!

Pistonhead78
08-09-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Steven@Sep 7 2006, 06:26 PM
Both got 140bhp per ton.

So why does everybody tell me that the Pug is so much quicker?

Confused.
bhp = brake horse POWER, just cuz u got the power dont mean you got the speed, end of the day power is nothing without weight, structual integraty and over all controle

Gary Kinghorn
08-09-2006, 05:17 PM
When I get 5 mins spare I will put mine on the rollers .... just out of interest ...as it feels strong and im interest how many of its 170 horses remain

Steven
08-09-2006, 05:35 PM
Just caught up with this thread.

I get the points about gearing, bhp as well as torque and the dynamics of the car.

Now, I did some digging and found some figures on the 325i Sport. 0-100 (a good indication of performance unlike 0-60) was quicker on the 325i sport. The Beemer did it in 20.3 seconds. The Pug did it in 20.9

I think it's a case that the beemer 'feels' slower cos it's revving lower and your not scrambling through the gears like with the Pug.

So, here's the facts:

BMW 325i Sport:

0-100 = 20.3
1200 kg

GTi-6

0-100 = 20.9
1215kg.


Now, I bet you'd save alot more weight stripping the big old seats out of a 3 series than those in the Pug.

The beemer has more torque low end and equally as much power with regards to pub talk - so I simply cannot see hw the Pug can be the quicker car. The difference must be negligabel between the 2 cars and probably depends on if you've got a good 'un or a bad 'un.

Unless I'm missing something fundamental, both cars are as quick as each other unless you nit pick over 0.001 seconds - and we'll leave that to the drag strip bell ends.

Gary Kinghorn
08-09-2006, 06:17 PM
I cant say as ive driven a 306GTi .....I have driven a 325i

You say the torque is the same (ish) but how and where is it delivered. Its not good having 170Ib ft if it all comes in at 7000rpm and goes back out by 7200rpm.
I would suggest the 306 with its newer technology will have a wider spread of torque and therefore be more accessable and quicker to drive.

It wont sound like a straight 6 though ;)

Dave G
08-09-2006, 07:02 PM
Despite the BMW being rear wheel drive, the Pug will outhandle out WAY outbrake the BMW in standard form.

Straight 6 does sound lovely, that's true. :thumb:

Steven
08-09-2006, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by davetouring@Sep 8 2006, 07:02 PM
Despite the BMW being rear wheel drive, the Pug will outhandle out WAY outbrake the BMW in standard form.

Straight 6 does sound lovely, that's true. :thumb:
No way going to keep it standard!!

Gary:

MAX POWER
173 bhp @ 5800 rpm

MAX TORQUE
170 lb.ft @ 4300 rpm

How that is delivered I don't know, but when the torque dies I'm guessing the power is then available. Handy for Ex Muhle I should think.

Dave G
08-09-2006, 07:33 PM
Are there figures from your 325 Steven? <_<

Steven
08-09-2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by davetouring@Sep 8 2006, 07:33 PM
Are there figures from your 325 Steven? <_<
No, I got those figures off t&#39;internet. Obviously as the car will be 17 years old it&#39;ll be a tad lower than that but they&#39;re the stats that I found.

Dave G
08-09-2006, 07:48 PM
I think it was supposed to be 171bhp?

Didn&#39;t think the torque was quite that high either?

To put the loss of power theory into perspective...

I went to a rolling road day last year, and one 325i made 171bhp.

A friend of mines car a very well cared for car, 325i Sport with 90k, a performance exhaust made 162bhp. The others all made between 160-170 mostly in the lower range&#33;

My Civic with 150k and just an air filter made 161bhp&#33; 1.6 engine&#33; They were gutted. :whistle:

Steven
08-09-2006, 07:53 PM
5 bhp on track either way really doesn&#39;t mean anything.

They look hardcore and I want one&#33;&#33; So tell me how great they are please. ;)

Dave G
08-09-2006, 07:58 PM
Sure sure, just some extra info&#33;

Ok...

They ARE great.

Get a nice Sport, and you will enjoy it. Polybush it, get an H&R Cup Kit, and uprated front pads, it will be fantastic fun, Sport, with LSD as standard will be a giggle in the wet&#33;

The Tech-II sport looks great, very pretty car. Rusty under the kit though.

Tech-I is a bit more hardcore, bit quicker because of the higher compression too.

:thumb:

Steven
09-09-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by davetouring@Sep 8 2006, 07:58 PM

Get a nice Sport, and you will enjoy it. Polybush it, get an H&R Cup Kit, and uprated front pads, it will be fantastic fun.


That is exactly what I was thinking. :)

Rock &#39;ard spenshun and nice and loud. It&#39;s all about the feeling and having fun.

lol, I sound like a tampon advert.

pete_rallye
09-09-2006, 01:38 PM
The gti-6 is always going to be faster as it was designed to be a fast hot hatch. A 325 wasn&#39;t, I doubt even the 325is was designed as a proper sports car, more like a sporty version of the 325 (could be wrong) whereas the gti-6 was designed to be driven hard. Even today the pug has one of the best fwd chassis&#39; ever, and I have no doubt in standard trim, and even against modified 325&#39;s the pug will win around a circuit.

Straight line speed means absolutely nothing, monkeys could drive fast in a straight line, it&#39;s all about the handling, the braking, the gear ratios. Torque and power are not even a consideration in my book until I am happy with the way the car drives.

I think both cars are an excellent choice for track car&#39;s, but they are also both very different. I think the gti-6 can be as much fun as a 325is, in the right hands (but that probably goes for both cars), but you need to prioritise what you like in a car and take it from there. Personally I like my high revving FWD hatches, and I know you liked your pug too. But others will prefer the low down grunt, the &#39;easier life&#39; if you like, of a bigger torquier motor. Along with rwd you&#39;re gonna have bags of fun in the wet, but maybe not be the quickest in the dry, not until you spank some hard cash on the 325 anyway&#33;

Just decide what you want a car to be when you drive it, then go buy one&#33;

Steven
10-09-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by pete_rallye@Sep 9 2006, 01:38 PM
Just decide what you want a car to be when you drive it, then go buy one&#33;
I want to test drive the 325i but can&#39;t really do that until the end of October.

Think I&#39;ll have a blast in one to see what I reckon. I did like the idea of an e36 M3 but I think Gary has the best idea in buying cheap to spend more money and time actually driving the thing instead of ploughing money into the car, and never having the cash to just go out and tan it&#33;&#33;

Demlotcrew
10-09-2006, 05:40 PM
Never driven the Pug but i would say go for the 325i&#33;

Andrew

Gary Kinghorn
11-09-2006, 08:19 PM
Just come back from hammering my 205 round for the last week and took the beemer out for a quick drive. My initial thoughts of the beemer being a fair bit quicker than the pug once it got going have now changed............. I would think the 205 is at least as quick.

I would therefore suggest a 306 would be quicker ..........

Yes im talking about straight line stuff, havent had chance to try any corner trials yet....

Steven
11-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Gutmann pug@Sep 11 2006, 08:19 PM
Just come back from hammering my 205 round for the last week and took the beemer out for a quick drive. My initial thoughts of the beemer being a fair bit quicker than the pug once it got going have now changed............. I would think the 205 is at least as quick.

I would therefore suggest a 306 would be quicker ..........

Yes im talking about straight line stuff, havent had chance to try any corner trials yet....
Am looking at a white 306 Rallye on Wednesday night.

andrewhewitt
12-09-2006, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Steven+Sep 11 2006, 08:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Steven @ Sep 11 2006, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Gutmann pug@Sep 11 2006, 08:19 PM
Just come back from hammering my 205 round for the last week and took the beemer out for a quick drive. My initial thoughts of the beemer being a fair bit quicker than the pug once it got going have now changed............. I would think the 205 is at least as quick.

I would therefore suggest a 306 would be quicker ..........

Yes im talking about straight line stuff, havent had chance to try any corner trials yet....
Am looking at a white 306 Rallye on Wednesday night. [/b][/quote]
Good man, you know it make sence&#33;&#33;&#33;

Simon
12-09-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Steven+Sep 11 2006, 09:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Steven @ Sep 11 2006, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Gutmann pug@Sep 11 2006, 08:19 PM
Just come back from hammering my 205 round for the last week and took the beemer out for a quick drive. My initial thoughts of the beemer being a fair bit quicker than the pug once it got going have now changed............. I would think the 205 is at least as quick.

I would therefore suggest a 306 would be quicker ..........

Yes im talking about straight line stuff, havent had chance to try any corner trials yet....
Am looking at a white 306 Rallye on Wednesday night. [/b][/quote]
Steven, do you wish that you had held on to your 306 now?

Steven
12-09-2006, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Simon+Sep 12 2006, 07:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Simon @ Sep 12 2006, 07:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Steven@Sep 11 2006, 09:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Gutmann pug@Sep 11 2006, 08:19 PM
Just come back from hammering my 205 round for the last week and took the beemer out for a quick drive. My initial thoughts of the beemer being a fair bit quicker than the pug once it got going have now changed............. I would think the 205 is at least as quick.

I would therefore suggest a 306 would be quicker ..........

Yes im talking about straight line stuff, havent had chance to try any corner trials yet....
Am looking at a white 306 Rallye on Wednesday night.
Steven, do you wish that you had held on to your 306 now? [/b][/quote]
:(

:unsure:

:angry:

:whistle:

:shame:

:censored: