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vamos
30-08-2006, 12:22 PM
I would like your opinions on combining performance pads (Pagid blue, EBC yellow or DS 2500) with standard discs? Will the discs get eaten?

I have seen elsewhere people advising against putting new performance pads and discs on at the same time, as they interfere with each other's bedding in procedures. What do you do?

Gary Kinghorn
30-08-2006, 12:34 PM
I ran Pagid yellow's with oem discs. The yellows were very good at stopping the car but as always with Subaru brakes the dreaded brake judder came at about 25 laps and didnt go away untill I had the disc's skimmed. I have yet to drive a scoob which didnt have brake issues of one kind or another. That included Simon's car with AP's IMHO

Gary

leavingeasy
30-08-2006, 12:38 PM
I dont like the 2500's.

I use them with Pagid discs and they gave up after two and bit successive laps.

Shergar uses Pagid yellow and used pagid oranges on my M5. They are abrasive and will eat your discs, but they work very very well.

Simon
30-08-2006, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Gutmann pug@Aug 30 2006, 01:34 PM
I ran Pagid yellow's with oem discs. The yellows were very good at stopping the car but as always with Subaru brakes the dreaded brake judder came at about 25 laps and didnt go away untill I had the disc's skimmed. I have yet to drive a scoob which didnt have brake issues of one kind or another. That included Simon's car with AP's IMHO

Gary
yea but the AP's were down to pad problems & the way I fitted them :whistle:

AP's with DS2500 Ferodos left loads of pad deposits on the discs. With EBC Yellows they worked fine, a little noisy but worn fairly quickly. With EBC redstuff ceramics they worn out in no time at all.

Giving Mintex 1155's a go now , front & rear. Will report back after my October foray :thumb:

The only ones I have not tried are the Pagid RS19's that Mark (warrenm2) uses & he swears by them. If the mintex are not up to scratch then I will give them a go.

Dave G
30-08-2006, 01:12 PM
After a fairly long chat with Tim at Ferodo Circuit Supplies, he came to the conclusion that uprated pads or at least DS2500/3000 pads are perfectly good with OE discs. Obviously regular fluid replacement has a fair effect on your braking, after a few corners! ;)

I have just received my fourth set of Ferodo DS2500s, I love them. I tried DS3000s, which is the Touring car compound, but they wore down very quickly, and had little 'feel' despite awesome bite. They were very good and stopped the car quickly, but the loss of feel was enough for me to go back to 2500s.

I must admit I've not tried other brands, but I recommend DS2500s to anyone.

You are looking at £100+ for one set.

I am able to get discount off this at present.

Makes an incredible difference over standard, who agrees one of the most annoying/scary things on track is brake fade?

I have always used OE discs. I have a set of EBC grooved at the moment though, so I'll let you know how I get on with these.

Thing is OE discs are SO much cheaper (in most cases) that you can pretty much replace them every other pad change. Which is an advantage of using OEs.

:)

EDIT: The light weight of my car is obviously a help!

Gary Kinghorn
30-08-2006, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Simon@Aug 30 2006, 02:05 PM


The only ones I have not tried are the Pagid RS19's that Mark (warrenm2) uses & he swears by them. If the mintex are not up to scratch then I will give them a go.
Those are the fella's I was using at the end. Good pads but not cheap at around £300 for the full set.

gary

p1doc
30-08-2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Gutmann pug@Aug 30 2006, 12:34 PM
I ran Pagid yellow's with oem discs. The yellows were very good at stopping the car but as always with Subaru brakes the dreaded brake judder came at about 25 laps and didnt go away untill I had the disc's skimmed. I have yet to drive a scoob which didnt have brake issues of one kind or another. That included Simon's car with AP's IMHO

Gary
dont say that :( i have just got a set for my scooby
martin

Gary Kinghorn
30-08-2006, 08:34 PM
Martin if you are running anything other than a £1500 big brake set up on your scoob your brakes will suffer from judder at the ring. If they don't your arent using them. Its a huge failing on the std car. Its a little disconcerting and into Briedchide after 4 hard downhill brakes it feels like its going to rattle you right out of the window...... It will get a little better on the drive home but generally its warped your discs.

Gary

pete_rallye
30-08-2006, 10:20 PM
I think poor brakes are common on most performance cars from what I have heard, especially the bigger one's. I know scooby's, evo's, m3's, csl's, m5's etc all suffer when you start using them properly.

I have run various pads on my 306, although as it only weighed about 1000kg, it won't of shown up any major flaws like it would of done on a heavier car. The best have been ds3000's and pagid blue's. ds2500's were good, but imo the ds3000's are better, and I would say wear rates are similar, although the ds3000's seem to eat discs a tad more, but that's to be expected. Also used carbon lorraine pads, which seem to do pretty well, only managed 5 1/2 laps on them though.

I was once told that most standard size discs are all made by the same company, and then each performance company groove's, drills etc it's own design of err, grooves and holes! Obvioulsy this isn't the case for the major race brands AP, Alcon, Brembo etc (although I have used standard size brembo discs and they were fine) who make there own.

I think a lot of it comes down to bedding the disc in, if you take your time and do it properly they will last a lot longer. At the end of the day, it is only a lump of machined iron!

GVK
30-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Pooky runs Pagid yellows in standard type brakes on his E36 M3, He's done 50+laps of the 'ring (He's around the 8:20BTG mark so not a slow fanny :lol: ) 4k road miles and 3 uk trackdays and the pads are not even a 1/3rd worn and not a trace of a lip on the discs.

I've bought a set for my Golf. :thumb:

Dave G
30-08-2006, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by GVK@Aug 30 2006, 10:25 PM
4k road miles and 3 uk trackdays and the pads are not even a 1/3rd worn and not a trace of a lip on the discs.

I've bought a set for my Golf. :thumb:
I find that amazing. They would last for 10k of tracktime in my teacup-weight Civic then! :whistle:

GVK
30-08-2006, 10:46 PM
I had a look at the discs myself so it's no BS! :lol:

I've been ummin' and arrring about these Pagid RS pads for ages, they are pricey at £150 :blink: :blink: :blink: But if they last *that* long they are worth the money.

DS3000 (£80) usually last me 2 x UK trackdays. :(

mckeann
31-08-2006, 01:18 AM
what one person thinks is superb and lasts a long time, can be gubbed in a day by someone who really knows how to brake.

I had Hi spec discs and pagid 42's on my 160 bhp elise. stopped perfectly well and lasted reasonably well. This was what the elise 'experts' recommended as a perfect trackday solution. all was well.


then i did some driver training and properly learnt how to brake. Most folk dont do it right. Not enough force at high speed. anyway, all of a sudden i was going through pads like nobody's business.

Then i added a 220bhp engine. combined with my new found ability to brake, i overheat my brakes and have pad transfer within 20 minutes. They certainly still work well enough, but the problem i now have, is that the discs get soooooo hot, that it boils my fluid. :whistle:

the answer for me is to buy a set of AP discs that can dissipate the heat. just that they cost almost £1000 :o

GVK
31-08-2006, 03:24 AM
Neil, all the instructors say that EVERYONE brakes early/like a girl :D

IanV brakes hard and late imo, however.. he went out with Pete @ Oulton ( think you were there ) and he got him braking much harder and later.

All well and good but they don't have to pay for the car, just for gaining a few meters in the braking zone :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

mckeann
31-08-2006, 03:27 AM
yeh, of course, not saying you have to listen to them, just that it is possible :P . And everyone will have different experiences of pads/discs depending on how they drive.

GVK
31-08-2006, 06:19 AM
Indeed! and it's very car dependent too. :thumb:

vamos
31-08-2006, 08:02 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I will keep the OM discs, change fluid, add braided hoses, and get either DS 2500 or EBC Yellow Stuff pads. Will let you know how I get on. :thumb:

Gary Kinghorn
31-08-2006, 08:21 AM
I know how you will get on ;)

ianv
31-08-2006, 11:04 AM
in my experience in the golf, oem discs are just fine, when compared to the usual drilled grooved performance discs, i tried a few difference types and have not felt any benefit from performance discs or any difference in disc life if anything the drilled ones tend to crack. (proper ally belled disc's excepted)

i think the abrasiveness of the pads which will have the biggest bearing to disc life, i have been using yellow stuffs for quite a while, which are a cheap pad, they don't last long as they are soft, but then they don't seem to wear the disc at all.

I still find it hard to believe how good the pagids are and how long they last. But if they last that long then surely they are a harder compound, which in turn must surely wear the disc considerably more..

I await GVK's experiences with them when he finally has a running car. :whistle:

Pooky
31-08-2006, 11:41 AM
Pagids:

RS 19 Yellow
Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS 14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation (controllability). Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1.100°F) are possible. The combination of friction value, fading stability and low wear rates on pads and discs (rotors) realized with this pad compound is unmatched up to now. Due to its outstanding wear rate and driveability PAGID endurance materials are often used at sprint races as well. A multiple winner of Daytona 24h, Le Mans 24h, Sebring 12h, Spa 24 h, Nürburgring 24h, often with no pad change and usually no disc (rotor) change. Application: All endurance racing cars from group N (Speed-WC, Grand Am Cup) up to GT and Sport-Prototypes (Grand Am DP).

RS 29 Yellow
New endurance compound. This compound combines the outstanding wear rate of the RS19 with a slightly higher coefficient of friction and initial bite. Due to its outstanding wear rate and driveability PAGID endurance materials are often used at sprint races as well. Application: All endurance racing cars from group N (Speed-WC, Grand Am Cup) up to GT and Sport-Prototypes (Grand Am DP).

ianv
31-08-2006, 12:30 PM
Cheers for the info pooky, i know how good they are supposed to be, but i'm too tight to ever buy a set! :shame:

Hence why i'm glad GVK has, cos i'll now see how good they are without actually wedging out myself to see!! :D

GVK
04-09-2006, 12:12 AM
They better be good :blink: :blink:

Mine are the RS19s hope they are ok.. :whistle: