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warrenm2
29-05-2006, 09:31 PM
Just a quickie cos Ive only recently got back and Im knackered, but briefly

Fri Wet down to Dover, wet in France, Belgium and Germany, and wet at the ring. The road to hell is being resurfaced (about 25% done) but the signs made it look like it was closed so followed the 30 mile diversion..... Few laps done which were actually quite fun as it had been raining so much the track was not scary just "progressive...." Dinner in the PK (Sabine serving)

Sat Busy but not as bad as I expected. Dried out but over cast - loads of stoppages. A biker went down at Kallenhard and as he was lying dazed in the road, car came round the corner and had no where to go.... heard later he died in hospital :( Started raining around 3, but stopped and dried out again by 5ish. Down to the chinese for dinner...

Sun More stoppages, one of them Sabine in the ring taxi. A Lotus was on the right on the approach to Tiergarten, Sabine went to overtake, Lotus closed the door on her (without seeing her) and went into her front wing. She then effectively did a PIT manovere on it and spun it round into the armco. Driver then insisted that the police were called, so closed track bill added to his armco bill whilst they turned up ! Sabine kindly let me past later on after I was following her round - the other taxi driver wouldnt move over though - I thought it was a policy thing, but it was just him being an arse. Dry all day and not too busy in the car park as most people were on the track. Not too many bikers either.

Saw Clare and Dave, Pete, Karl, Jochim and a few others who I didnt get introduced to, finished in one piece (although I think a wheel bearing is on the way out) and just got home on fuel vapour alone.

Planning to be back out in August...

Simon
29-05-2006, 09:49 PM
Mark

Glad that you are bad ok. Always a shame when someone dies tbh & I feel for the care driver as it must be hell for him.

Bet the air was blue around Sabine after her incident, good job you eat in the PK on the Friday night :thumb:. Get the wheel bearing checked asap as when my nsf one went the hub needed changing as well :o

Root admin
30-05-2006, 05:55 PM
I'd better get cracking on my report ;) Gotta be a bit more detailed for the main site unfortunately. Let's hope I can remember it all......

Clare

pye21
30-05-2006, 08:10 PM
Good weekend, was a shame about the accident on saturday!! Really makes you think!!

Dave Malings
30-05-2006, 08:35 PM
I'll wait for Karl to confirm, but the last I heard was, he made it through the night (Saturday).

Fingers crossed.

Dave

Root admin
30-05-2006, 08:36 PM
If you thought about the accidents, you'd never go on track. It's sad however and my condolences go out to his family.......

Vertigo1
30-05-2006, 10:42 PM
Hi guys, thought I'd look up your site after seeing the Clio haring round over the past few days.

We were out there from Wed to Mon, eating in the PK and staying in the Ringblick across the road. You might have seen us about, we were in an E39 M5, Rover Vitesse, MX-5 and a diesel A3 (don't laugh! :)

The big accident was a major bummer, not least for those involved, do we know for sure what's happened to him, did he make it or not?

As for the Sunday incident, I wasn't aware Sabine was involved although I remember noticing during the day that she had a scuff on her right front wheelarch so now I know. I presume this was the earlier closure? Anyone know what the later one was that went on till gone 6pm?

Toby

Karl
31-05-2006, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Dave Malings@May 30 2006, 08:35 PM
I'll wait for Karl to confirm, but the last I heard was, he made it through the night (Saturday).

Fingers crossed.

Dave
Yes he did, I'll post more when I know the "facts", until then I suggest we don't do carpark gossip about it ;)

IanHowell
31-05-2006, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Vertigo1@May 30 2006, 10:42 PM
Hi guys, thought I'd look up your site after seeing the Clio haring round over the past few days.

We were out there from Wed to Mon, eating in the PK and staying in the Ringblick across the road. You might have seen us about, we were in an E39 M5, Rover Vitesse, MX-5 and a diesel A3 (don't laugh! :)

The big accident was a major bummer, not least for those involved, do we know for sure what's happened to him, did he make it or not?

As for the Sunday incident, I wasn't aware Sabine was involved although I remember noticing during the day that she had a scuff on her right front wheelarch so now I know. I presume this was the earlier closure? Anyone know what the later one was that went on till gone 6pm?

Toby
I believe the later Sunday closure was due to AMG testing a couple of their new SL55's.

They had a silver one that was drifting all over the place until he lost it quite badly. I don't think anyone was hurt though just a fair bit of damage.

I didn't see it directtly only what I heard...

Dave Malings
31-05-2006, 08:20 PM
Ian, can I nick some of yer pics for my report please????? I'll let you have the full-size versions of your car at Adenauer Forst if you do.... :D

pete_rallye
31-05-2006, 08:28 PM
My mate saw the crash on Sunday, or one of them. An Audi A3 lost the back end at schwendenkreuiz (sp!) got on the grass on the left side, then spun across the track and slammed backwards into the barrier on the right side. No injuries but car was a mess. Apparently there were other crashes too at the same time, don't know much about them though...

CSL_justin
31-05-2006, 08:33 PM
not sure if it's ok to post a reply like this. if not, admins feel free to remove, but i just wanted to give an alternitive view on the ring...

i was there from friday through to monday afternoon and TBH, it was a pretty mixed weekend for me, due to the weather, but mostly it was a real eye opener as in why it's known as the "green hell". came across alot of cars and bikes that had fallen off the track, it just seemed to be happening non-stop all weekend.

unfortunately i was first on the scene for the biker incident at kallenhard, along with two other cars. as i rounded the corner the biker was lying on the ground seemingly unconcious. all of our cars were able to avoid him, thank god, but it was luck more than anything else as he was on the racing line. we pulled over to the grass on the right hand side and jumped out to help, but during this time another car had not been so lucky and hit him. realising this was gonna happen again i ran on up the hill and tried to slow down the following cars. once the marshalls started to arrive i headed back to my car.
all the way back to the carpark amanda was in pieces, as we both realised it was a very serious accident, and i kept thinking to myself why had that driver not been able to avoid him, when we had.

but i was wrong.

on subsequent laps during the weekend i realised that if myself, or the other two cars that were close to me at the time had been taking the corner at full speed on the correct line we would have hit him. we were just lucky that at that corner at that time we were either overtaking, or being overtaken, and as a result were probably slower than we normally would have been. i really feel for the driver of the car....

if anybody heres any more about the biker please let me know...

definately made me think twice while approaching blind crests for the remainder of the weekend, on many occasions i had my foot hovering on the brake pedal when it shouldn't have been, but enjoyed sunday as the track stayed dry for the whole day. passed the infamous blue clio a few times on the track ;) and then got passed by it on sunday afternoon and got a wave for jumping out of the way so quickly :thumb:

as i said, a mixed weekend, but has it put me off the ring....
i'm already planning a trip for august :)

justin.

Dave Malings
31-05-2006, 08:41 PM
Thanks for posting. This sort of incident is very sobering and reminds us how dangerous our 'playground' can be :(

Which CSL were you in?

Dave

pete_rallye
31-05-2006, 08:47 PM
I have never been involved in a serious crash, or any crash for that matter at the 'ring, but I think driving over someone, or seeing someone been driven over would seriously put me off. When I drive it, I am fully commited, to the point where I don't even notice yellow flags until the last minute (which I got told off about). I think as long as you are in control of the car, you should be able to avoid things, obviously depending on how fast you are going and how much time you have to react, but I would happily stick my car in the barrier to avoid a person lying on the track....

Thr ring is a dangerous place, everyone knows cars and bikes don't mix, and everyone accepts the risks when they go on track. These sort of occurances are unfortunately to be expected, unless they seperate the cars and the bikes, crashes like this will happen.

CSL_justin
31-05-2006, 09:13 PM
hi dave,

i was in the grey, but very dirty, CSL with pimped windows and a northern irish reg FEZ ****.

Justin.

IanHowell
31-05-2006, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Dave Malings@May 31 2006, 08:20 PM
Ian, can I nick some of yer pics for my report please????? I'll let you have the full-size versions of your car at Adenauer Forst if you do.... :D
Hi Dave,

Good to see you both at the weekend.
Please feel free to use any photos you want.:thumb:


As for the weekend, it was my second weekend there and I couldnt believe some of the driving/riding going on.
I saw alot of inconsiderate use of the track both in the wet and dry.

At one point as a passenger, when I was helping someone on their 2nd lap ever, we came upon an incident with someone in the road with a yellow flag waving. The guy I was with then saw a Silver RS2000 escort with uk plates come up and overtake at full speed on our left then slam on the brakes after he passed the marshal nearly losing it on the bend we were going around.
There was ample time to slow if they had looked ahead and seen the marshal but seemed more interested getting passed a slower car with its brakes on.



Ian.

Root admin
01-06-2006, 05:45 AM
I wrote that, I must have been a bit half cut not to realise I was logged in as Dave!

Cheers Ian.
Clare

Weeman
01-06-2006, 09:20 AM
I think its good to realise the sobering facts behind incidents such as that, I myself have on one occasion on my last visit, only seen a flag at the last minute, its easy to do when your focused (and always one eye on the rear view mirror) I received a very stern look from the marshall, and I in turn replied with a very sheepish one, In all my laps, i have never driven alone, i always take a passenger, often two or three, The extra eyes are always a bonus. I have not been going as often as most of you on here, but in the 2 years i have been, the difference in visitors has been hugely noticable, down to the Top gear factor, i'm sure. I have had moments, Straight over Adenauer Forst on my second lap, and the worlds best lift off oversteer induced fwd drift at Hatzenbach, which resulted with grass tracking. Each of these moments especially the BANG!!!!! at Adenhauer, has made me sit back and consider just how dangerous it can be, But each lap out after that has been some of my best ever.

I have driven hard, hard enough to remove several items of Clio trim and the brake pads down to metal backing plate, and i know that both Myself the old clio and the New Golf is more than capable of doing sub 9m BTG. But the last few trips, and the resultant crappy weather, November and march/ april trip, has made me realise that you can have as much fun, doing steady wet laps ( or snowstorm laps in daves case) I've also decided that 95 -100% laps i will shelve for now. I get most of my pleasure from the atmosphere, the people and the cars, I know I can lap quickly, and for me thats enough, to just back off that little bit. Its helped by the fact the Golf is a company car, and the thought of explaining why its full of gravel to my unsypathetic boss fills me with fear. People driving very slowly are as much of a risk as those on the ragged edge, especially when they cannot differeniate between left and right with regards to making way, But i guess aslong as its freely open, and everyone with a ps2 thinks they can get round in 7minutes, its destined to be full of incidents

I'm currently looking for a second car, purely for the short trip into Germany, but even then i think i'll remain on the steady side, What frightens me, is the way that this addiction takes hold, i think it would be easier to stop smoking, drinking and heroin all at the same time, than quit visiting the ring. :D

RB5_245
01-06-2006, 10:27 AM
Good reading.

What worried me, and I found considerably embarrasing what that the vast majority of cars crashed this weekend (that I saw) seemed to be british :(

I also found that the standard of driving was higher in the wet.

Another worrying thing was the bikers lack of indicating right to let you know they've spotted you. As a biker myself I found the slower riders to be quite unaware of there surroundings, and in fact my one close call of the weekend came from a biker taking some wild lines nearly taking out me and another bike he was running far to close too.

Simon
01-06-2006, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by RB5_245@Jun 1 2006, 11:27 AM
Good reading.

What worried me, and I found considerably embarrasing what that the vast majority of cars crashed this weekend (that I saw) seemed to be british :(

I also found that the standard of driving was higher in the wet.

Another worrying thing was the bikers lack of indicating right to let you know they've spotted you. As a biker myself I found the slower riders to be quite unaware of there surroundings, and in fact my one close call of the weekend came from a biker taking some wild lines nearly taking out me and another bike he was running far to close too.
I've had more than a few bike near misses with them leaning into the car. I always wait to see if they indicate that they have spotted you but like you have said, a lot don't & some see you & still try to get in your car :o

Weeman
01-06-2006, 10:44 AM
I think its down to the Culture in the uk. As an Englishman living in Holland its clear the popularity of fast cars , track days etc is way greater than here in Nl and most other european countries, hence the huge influx of ring goers the last year or so. Its very rare you read a copy of evo or Topgear these days with no mention or article regarding the ring, its become a badge of honour to say you've visited. Rightly so i would reccomend it to anyone, I'm even trying to get my mum to take the golf round when she comes to visit (on a quiet weeknight i might add) Unfortunately, there seems to be too many people intent on cracking whatever time there mate did etc etc. I was always told " drive it like your favorite bit of B road" and thats what i've always done, keeping withing the limits of the car and myself, because i'm not a racing driver, nor never will be. When i was learning to ride a motorbike years ago, my instructor said to me, imagine that theres a bus full of orphaned school kids on its roof round every corner, and you'll always be that little bit more careful, although on a sunday, technically that could actually happen :):)

Pooky
01-06-2006, 05:16 PM
I don't like to hear of accidents of this nature but I do think the accident rate seems to have rocketed recently.

I've been going to the ring now for five years and the last two years have seen a significant increase in weekend traffic and a significant deterioration in driving standards. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, this has come mainly from the British contingent.

When the Top Gear program of Jeremy Clarkson trying to break a 10 minute target without any track experience first aired I hope I wasn't the only one who was horrified. It goes against any training or guide that you might receive and didn't explain the unique environment or associated dangers that the ring holds. Personally I feel this is at the root of the frequency of accidents involving Brits and so as frequent users we have a responsibility to encourage new visitors and each other to simply enjoy their laps and concentrate on smooth lines and consistency and not compare lap times. After all such is the variability in traffic, roadworks and weather that these comparisons are pretty meaningless.

Accidents as described earlier in this thread are sobering for us all. Two weeks ago there was a nasty accident involving an experienced and fully trained driver during the industry pool. It just goes to show that the ring doesn't discriminate against those with less experience but simply against those that don't treat it with respect.

pete_rallye
01-06-2006, 06:33 PM
I can't help but think that a lot of the UK drivers who go to the 'ring do so because of the 'status' they will recieve for been able to say they have been. I think that a lot of the UK drivers have probably spent a fortune on their car, have loads of power, looks real nice and shiny, but haven't ever actually driven on a track before, and have decided to tag along with the few regular trackdayers from there car forum or whatever expecting to beat everyone because, as others have mentioned, they know the 'ring like the back of there hand on the ps2, but don't have any idea on real life car control whatsoever. There all great at beating others from the traffic lights, and driving like an arse on there local a road, but give them a real challenge like the 'ring, and they just aren't up to it.

Gary Kinghorn
01-06-2006, 07:30 PM
We also tend to have a race attitude rather than a ''that car behind is quicker than me so i'll get the hell out of its way''

pete_rallye
01-06-2006, 09:27 PM
I have a "must catch that car in front" attitude, but if someone is faster than me I will happily let it past, it pisses me off to get held up, so I don't hold others up.

nozzer
01-06-2006, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by pete_rallye@Jun 1 2006, 06:33 PM
I can't help but think that a lot of the UK drivers who go to the 'ring do so because of the 'status' they will recieve for been able to say they have been. I think that a lot of the UK drivers have probably spent a fortune on their car, have loads of power, looks real nice and shiny, but haven't ever actually driven on a track before, and have decided to tag along with the few regular trackdayers from there car forum or whatever expecting to beat everyone because, as others have mentioned, they know the 'ring like the back of there hand on the ps2, but don't have any idea on real life car control whatsoever. There all great at beating others from the traffic lights, and driving like an arse on there local a road, but give them a real challenge like the 'ring, and they just aren't up to it.
I totally agree with your post pete. I havnt spoke to paul(nobleman) yet after his weekend as ive been gutted that i couldnt go for the first time in 4 years, but when people speak to me about the ring there is a certain status they think they will get, as for top gear and the xbox/ps2 crowd, well , thats why there are so many closers!
Perhaps im just gutted i couldnt be there!!

Weeman
02-06-2006, 08:14 AM
I used to try and keep going as quickly as possible when a fast car caught me, and indicate and pull to the right when it was the right place, But i found that i had too many occasions when i'd end up on the wrong line at the wrong corner still doing a fair speed. I've stopped doing anything thats time related these days, So i just back off where ever it is let em through and then get back on it again. What annoys me is the " My car is more expensive and faster than yours and even if i'm driving slower there is no way i'm moving over" mentality that some have. :(

GVK
06-06-2006, 05:58 AM
"What annoys me is the " My car is more expensive and faster than yours and even if i'm driving slower there is no way i'm moving over" mentality that some have."

That happens on UK trackdays too :unsure:

I call them the Lambosakararri drivers - those with fast cars that will not yeild to a slower (bhp) but faster (well handling) car around the circuit. :thumb:

pete_rallye
06-06-2006, 09:05 AM
Yep, think we've all suffered from that. I find it is especially caterfield owners that are the worst, although I had a particularly bad experience with a radical which was mind bogglingly slow on the corners (where it should still be fast) but the bloke just floored it on the straights. Had a bit of an argument with that one.

I have found the 'ring mile's better though, track etiquette is loads better, although I swear some bikers have blinkers on, it takes them that long to see you!

pye21
06-06-2006, 01:01 PM
I always seem to find that there is one particular nation of people that dont understand the etiqute (speeling!!!) on track, the French. I had several problems the weekend just gone, and last year with french cars that wouldn't get out of the way when i was clearly faster i.e. i wasn't there 30sec ago but i am now!!!

Worst case last week was an impreza that i caught at Wipperman and he wouldn't move over until i out accelerated him exciting schwalbenshwanz and then out braked him into the mini-karussell, he then tried to out brake me (on the inside/right hand side) into Galgenkopf before relising he had neither the talent or the brakes to carry it off, by the time we hit the straight i was at least 50m in front!